bigbearfng

exactly...and the POLICY at Perris is if you are in the air and this happens, then you land off the grass. the GRASS IS CLOSED. There are acres and acres of dirt fields to land in. So you have to adjust your pattern (as brett said) in order to land out in the dirt. The REAL issue here is that everyone had "grass envy" and ignored the pertinent rule. heaven forbid they get their jumpsuits dirty. Hmmm, I'm sure "grass envy" does play a part in these things at times. However.... I'm also looking back to a mention above about the swooper coming in (or even just a late commitment to direction from anyone-be it "chasing the sock" or whatever) and folk behind him guessing his direction-there has been enough low turns that ended up in injuries; I don't want to see any more. (And yes everyone "should" be able to safely flat turn etc. but obviously that isn't the case. That's another whole subject!) And say you're lined up and then abort to the dirt on the side...now a canopy behind you-you're cutting across in front of them....and there's a potential canopy collision..... I'm thinkin there is advantage to hangin back till the landing patterns well established. And if it's lookin like a cluster developing, well then I like the dirt! Just throwing more food for thought out there........

Point taken-I was just thinking back to student days of ripcord mains where I was taught to check over your shoulder if nothings happening after pulling.-simple and quickly made type of move.

Reply to no one in particular- First one on the grass entered mid field-I admit it actually looked like he was going to land south to north at first to me also. Lesson-set up in an obvious (especially obvious for newbs) manner. Winds had been light and variable with flags shifting-but typical Perris it can change as your already on approach-I'll take the down winder if need be. After the first one (on grass) landed to the south I was already setting up approach-looked behind me and saw the newbs set up to land south to north-yes I could of also landed to south, but I also don't expect/want to see a newb attempt a low turn and get hurt. If I did land to south at that point I saw myself as the one likely getting hit..... I saw the way clear to the North and went long and landed off the grass to the North wanting to avoid what looked likely...... Absolutely newb with target fixation after talking to him later. And yes when you're on the ground heads up-which I admit I've been guilty of a lack of also-who hasn't if you're being honest? Don't get complacent! I like to be my own harshest critic-feel free to join me! I never want to stop learning.

In light of the recent incident at Perris and previous reserve deployment hesitations I really would like to know if there has been any "official" studies on ideal body position to enhance rapid deployment of the reserve. In the incidents it was mentioned that JS actually did recomend a head high position. Does any other manufacturer give advice? Definitely sounds like this could/should be added to our pre-jump mental EP's.

Just curious the testing you mention-how new was that MD80? And was it tested in flight? Reason being after having flown armed for work and having a chance to candidly talk to some pilots; those doors have been known to pop open on take off- whether because of older aircraft? Airframe flex only seen on take off? Either way it was a quandry for them.....was that door rigged to open? Do I abort? Continue? And yes doors plus a competent pilot with a weapon is preferable. I trust the pilot to fly the plane safely, so I'll trust them with weapons also!

I believe the dead cops WERE armed with guns and were properly trained in their use (unlike many civilians). Didn't seem to help them. I usually don't bother with these discussions but.... Now for a LEO perspective. Yes the cops were armed and trained and still died. However if we responded to every call such as this with rifles/shotguns aimed on entry; well, the public and media would be screaming that it was an over reaction/racially motivated, blah blah blah!!!! So the street cop has to temper their response. And the way I look at it is the way our hands are tied the bad guy is always going to get a first shot free. That's the unfortunate facts of life..... If it comes in as an active shooter call then we can respond without quite so many monday morning quarterbacks. Now for some further examples-(real by the way) In Florida there was a "test run" by terrorists- two men boarded a school bus full of kids, glared at the bus driver, sat down, wearing heavy clothing, refused to leave. Responding cops arrested them with minimal force. But if it was a real bombing they would of been wrong and a bus full of kids would of been dead. Or if they had taken the head shots and no bombs found the media would of crucified them. Real FBI stats are that in stranger abductions of kids 75% are dead within 3 hours and 98% in 3 days. If you see it going down do you take the shot? Either way you're going to get all the monday morning quarterbacks second guessing you after the fact. And as far as "american culture" , "gun culture" being to blame.....try taking a look at a changing parenting culture instead-take a long hard look at that one! Along with the resulting change in values that result. Oh BTW, Washington DC has about the most restrictive gun laws on the books, and also has the highest violent crime rate. And yea, if someone has a real suggestion to a solution speak up! A solution that doesn't trample all your civil rights also. But don't even waste time with ban all guns-if you could only see what illegal heavy weapons come in along with the illegal drugs....... OK, end of what I meant as food for thought and I guess was kind of a rant.... sorry it got so long.....

Back to the OP- Ever heard the saying "It's the Indian, not the arrow"?

nbblood- that's an awesome example!!! No I've never seen it that bad....yet! In answer to a few questions and comments- There are DZ's that I would also only advise experienced up-jumpers to go to. And others that I wouldn't advise anyone to go to! I really like the above comment regarding if you would hesitate at all about letting your own mother jump there. As far as specific safety issues, it runs the list from obvious shitty aircraft (though not as bad as nbblood's example!), no use of seatbelts, tandems going in whiteout conditions from exit solid down to 1000ft, really sketchy tandem landings due to conditions, etc etc. And I realize the TIs working the tandem mills have a lotta pressure on them to keep jumping, but at a certain point....come on, you are responsible for someone else's life too!

First off I don't want this to be any specific DZ name bashing post because that's not my intent. I've been trying to jump at a fair number of different DZs around the country, and am finding large discrepancies in safety; yes I know I've read about those things here, but after seeing for myself the different levels of safety I guess you could say it makes it more real for me. When friends and family ask about either making a tandem, AFF or fun jumping I have strong feelings about where I recomend now! And there are DZs where I won't bother going to again because of this issue. Have many other folk gone thru this, hmmm, is the right term "rude awakening"? And I can't help but feel concerned for the first timers that have no clue!!!

________________________________________________ I don't see as how climbers "tear up and deface" the rocks. Hell, we even have "etho" chalk that's colored the same color as the rock you're on so it doesn't show up! But when it comes to big walls.....you're supposed to pack it out now but.... Base jumpers don't crap in a bag and send said brown bomb below.

Just curious what you have done-checked or carry on for neptune and regular altimeters. Problems/reasons? Thanks. And yes already found that I need to carry on all my rechargable camera batteries. Next months vacation will be the first time flying in a long time that it wasn't for work-so I actually have to go thru screening and metal detectors this time!

Pick a better analogy in reference to how it was stated....... If someone in your family dies by knife it damn sure isn't only 20% as important.............

With the wingsuit fatality, the 'instructor' did not ensure that the student was geared up properly, and given that mis-rigging with a wingsuit can be a very big deal (obviously), they dropped the ball. __________________________________________________ First off I agree with most all you've said here. However I'm having problems with the continued "throw down" of the instructor in this case. There are several questions still left hanging. As I questioned in Incidents. What was his demeanor? Was he asked about proper gear up and he did the "WS gear check shrug" and said ya ya ya I'm good to go and already double checked everything? (he did already make one succesful WS jump with proper gear up) Did he misrepresent jump numbers? He did already get turned away once and just went down the road; which to me shows a trend in demeanor/attitude. I don't know that there are any real answers for the following, but these (ethical?) Q's have sure been sticking in my head lately. How far are you expected to go to verify jump numbers? If you get resistance to your 1/2 hour explanation of why it's a bad idea at this stage, how far do you go to prevent him from doing something really stupid and getting hurt or worse? This is beginning to feel like deja vu to when Ron tried to talk about not downsizing canopies too soon......and then finally wanted to tell them "told ya so!" as they're laying there femured in! A lotta food for thought bouncing around here lately......hope everyone can learn from it, but if there's one thing I've figured out by now; there's always gonna be more DGITs.........

It's easy for accusations to fly about instructors/jumpers whether it is in regards to selling a HP canopy to a newbie, getting a jumper into wingsuiting for the first time, or any number of similars. However if you are told by someone that their experience level and jump numbers are such and such-do you usually take them at their word? Verify their word? And how much would you do to verify their word? (And no I'm not saying that this was the situation in FL. Even though it may very well have been the case, there is not enough info to say that right now and may not have been that way.)

Planning a trip to Hawaii in March. What is to be expected as far as wind conditions and weather? Thanks!

Atleast the sheepdogs understand. _______________________________________________ Concerned sheepdog.... I like that thought! Well put!

If the "Intel is there," then the attack is prevented. _________________________________________________ Only in a perfect world. Or in a place where there are sealed borders and no civil rights left, (all those constitutional "unreasonable search and seizure" things). And since we are all human, guess that means it's not a perfect world either.

Actually the Intel is there, and our department is seriously preparing. As are others. As for the speculation....this is SC after all?

OK folks, what's your thoughts. Cause fact is the next 911 is already being planned, most LE agencys are training for responding to it now, and it's gonna be ugly.

I really wish there was an option of "none of the above" on the ballots. If none of the above won then would the politicians listen? After all they all lie, it doesn't matter what party they're from.

This seems to be a rarity, but after seeing it thought it would be worth putting up here for learning info. I'm in the habit of looking at chest straps on the plane and on the way out to the plane and have caught a couple misrouted straps. We were in the door getting ready to exit when a kid on the jump backed out of the door and started looking and tugging on her rt legstrap. Yup-misrouted!!!! She managed to correctly thread it and we let others start exiting, then she decided to ride the plane down-no critisizm with that decision! Afterwards turns out she had already made a jump on the rig that day with no problems. It was a rental that was a bit large on her-legs straps a lot of xtra that she had folded over several times so it would have been tough to see it even if you were looking for it. But i do admit other than a gear check on the ground for a newb I have never really looked for leg strap routing in the plane. She must have unthreaded all the way on that side when she took the rig off for whatever reason, and then misrouted it and put the elastic band back on. To her credit she noticed it kept loosening as she was getting up to the door and didn't ignore it, but checked it. And when I saw what it was it sure got my attention. So I'll be letting my eyes drift over leg straps, not just chest straps now......

Any further info? Costa Rica is in my plans too. Thanks.

Blues skies Harry, you've touched so many lives making so many friends. You will be missed.

I'm beginning to think that it may be when the full realization of just how unforgiving this sport can be really sinks in and you can accept that and still feel the need to keep jumping for as long as you can. "If it can happen to..........(too many names now)............it can happen to anyone."

it took the shine off the penny __________________________________________________ I wasn't sure I was making sense. Thanks for finding some clarifying words.