Liemberg

depends on where you are in space and time... (Like in the DOOR of say, a Cessna 206, with your rig already outside the airplane? )... Other than that, Brian packs his pilotchute the same as I do... now aint that a coincidence? AND: when your bag comes out before your pilotchute (and you live to tell the tale) you might want to rethink tension on the closing loop / replacement when worn, etcetera - NOT an extra slippery pilotchute to make up for poor maintenance...i.e. prevent horseshoes before you 'solve them' (and bring down a tail-less airplane in the proces) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Ah, but then it is youthfull impatience, NOT the bungee, which causes the problem... Rest asured, I wouldn't want one on a highly loaded eliptical. My ZP 170 however had one for years. Nobody wanted to borrow that rig for a hop & pop - how can that be bad ? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Other than F111 wears quicker and ZP is more slippery (under all circumstances you want the pilot to stay inside the pocket untill YOU get it out...)? ZP pilot can be of smaller size compared to F111 - due to different permeability, but I wouldn't know if that is a pro or a con - since inflated, they should work about the same (i.e. a smaller ZP / bigger F111/ same drag). Important however is to look at it as a parachute-system; what might work perfectly in one combination of bag, bridle, container, lines and parachute might work not so good in another and could even be dangerous. Base jumpers found out (the hard way) that the *big* pilotchute for low jumps / quick extraction, proved to be dangerous when you opened the same combination after five seconds of freefall... YMMV "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

In retrospect it indeed *sounded* as if I doubted that - I apologize. Then again, this is a public forum and other readers might lack that specific knowledge. But: why would you get poor openings? the elastic starts to do its job *after* the opening, i.e. if it doesn't do its job you might lose on flight characteristics - but your parachute is flying, nonetheless... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

I fail to see what else I could get from the bungee losing it's elasticity - provided the original pieces of tape in the midle of the PC are still intact. AFAIK F111 PC's may loose their porosity a lot faster than the bungee looses its elasticity and that can mean the PC stays collapsed... (Everybody does know that the opening of a bungee PC *starts* with a collapsed pilotchute which inflates through airspeed and collapses again once the airspeed is reduced in parachute flight? Well now you do ) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

"Stupid is as stupid does?" Then again, this can also be said about overtightened rapid links, "having scissors built into your slider-grommets", non-tacked slider bumpers made of the wrong material, rapid links from the tool shop down the road etcetera. I prefer slinks for all the reasons Hooknswoop mentioned. They also make it slightly easier to get the slider out of the way, once its collapsed. And they look cool "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Meanwhile I have been searching my memory and the only thing I can come up with is a large DZ (Kapowsin?) where within days (?) two tandemfatallities occurred. One of them was probably(?) the passenger - while already under canopy - grabbing the cutaway handle while trying to grab a steering toggle (?)... Then again, this maybe another tandemmasters 'urban myth' but I always tell them: "After the opening I start talking to you again and WILL SHOW YOU the toggles in front of your face and tell you to grab them..." I DO remember an exitshot from a buddy of mine, years and years ago, where you could see the passenger grabbing behind her back with both hands against the sides of the tandemrig. AFAIK she could not hold on to the drogue bridle... Occasionally I get people that hook my ankles with their feet and on of them last year "sort of" leg-locked my leg with both of her legs... (Yes, tight side-straps, I know... ) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

I tell them not to grab my hands or I'll chew off their ears, since apparently they have no use for them...

Horrible thoughts have occurred to me. In 2004 I was even interviewed by two Dutch police officers that were investigating a case of sabotage on a rig and for some reason wanted my views on the subject. From what they told me about what happened, who saw what, etcetera I had to draw the inevitable conclusion that indeed that rig was sabotaged... (and please don't ask me to elaborate on that, not even in PM...) The skyhook, however, bears the trade-mark of Mr. Bill Booth. I don't know him personally but he strikes me as a smart designer. As usual he again made something both simple and clever. Point the hook towards the bag and you're home free, point the hook towards the pilot and you're in deep shit... I think I will be able to remember that and if I have to pack a reserve with a skyhook I sure as hell will check how the hook is connected to the bridle...

Both good ideas... BTW: TI's are supposed to touch all their handles on every jump after the drogue pull and lots of them do it religiously. Me? (but then again, I never was very religious...) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

The only reason why I would consider a new Vector IS the skyhook. Then again, I think I understand how it works AND I pack my own reserve. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

You should have brought someone to flare

I would not know. I do know that twice I landed with tandempassengers that were 'flat out'. They didn't get hurt the least. Do keep in mind however that I flared the canopy on both occasions. Maybe truth in the old saying that when 'falling down' it is best to be either a small child (unaware) or completely drunk (idem). IMO being completely relaxed might help... OTOH If these assumptions are wrong, landing a too small reserve while unconscious might leave you paraplegic or worse. YMMV... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

That is why we have this big bowl standing at my place with a sign that says 'Beer money'. I reffer al tippers to it... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

You ought to be spanked!

He should've never brought it up overhere in the first place?

1. Why dont you Americans make your own?

look at this... Don't worry about the incomprehensible language, thats dutch...

Marketing? After all, who wants to see dummies?

If nothing else, at least you must be current.

No. Some want to look interesting at parties. Some want to feel good about themselves. Some only want to descend under an open canopy (yeah, I know. we all want that but usually we start with a closed container and that is the part a lot of first timers would like to skip) Once I ended up with a guy who didn't want to jump but was with a girl who wanted to and would have rather died then... At hook-up time he decided she wasn't worth dying for. So there and then he told me that he didn't want to jump... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Brevity is the soul of wit? I'll never ever manage the "throwing-your-rig-in-the-air-with-a-somersault-gear-up-trick" I once saw him do on video. No comparision... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Why go for "easy" if "complicated" is possible? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Hi Brian, I am somewhat reluctant to discuss this in a public forum, because starting a hybrid program is exactly what did get me in a world of trouble. But here goes: At my place I have been (and am) running a ‘hybrid’ program since 1992. The logic that did get me to this is the same as yours. Static-line students can enlist after reaching a certain level on their static-line jumps that would clear them for their first freefall in the ‘classic static-line training’ (in Holland this is minimum 5 jumps, 2 consecutive succesful practice ripcord pulls – we ad “3 consecutive stable exits before we give you a dummy”) Instead of doing the 3” / 5” / 10” / 10”+ altimeter / altimeter progression, we send them up high with one AFF instructor. After showing “enough awareness” on the first freefall jump, the second jump usually is the release jump. The third one their main objective is turns-belly-to-earth and on the fourth they do at least one backloop which in their case means: “become unstable & save your ass” Their fifth jump is a solojump from altitude, then 5000ft, then clear-and-pull at 3500ft. It goes without saying that this is the bare minimum and if they fail a level they must repeat that jump. They are equipped with a simple Dytter set 500ft below their designated opening altitude and on every jump they must ‘beat the Dytter’ in order not to fail the level. To make a long story short, it ended up with me and 2 AFF instructors getting their ratings pulled, although with our program we did not do anything that wasn’t allowed in the Dutch BSR. Re your motto (“lets keep talking”) I tried to do just that but was forced to take the KNVvL (= dutch USPA) to court, to continue the conversation... (Hey, its my livelihood, what else can you expect when you pull my ratings) I won (because what we were doing was allowed under our BSR’s; the judge ruled “that if something else than that what was written down was meant in the regulations in the future it might be a better idea to word those regulations in such a way that the meaning would be clearly expressed…”) Since that time we gained a world of experience running the program and I really don’t want to give it up. (Hint: You are on the right track there, Brian…) I got another suspension because I asked a German instructor/examiner (with also USPA – AFF ratings) to help us out with our German speaking students. My centre got ‘stonewalled’ out of the National organization on a legal technicality. They tried to pull my KNVvL-membership. (and as a consequence of course my instructors- and tandemrating) Went to court again. They lost again (Now, we are just bickering over how many euro’s they have to pay me – once you get the lawyers in, well, you know how that goes…and to make things crystal-clear: The first letter from a lawyer was RECEIVED by me…but for now it is a stalemate situation with which I am not happy) My legal predicaments aside, now for the $64000 question: Is the program safe? Relatively speaking it is. We are well aware that you loose the backup of an extra AFF instructor but your student gets thoroughly instructed and has the benefit of his static-line experience. Besides, with only one instructor you also loose a factor that could ‘screw your exit’. Two ways with at least one person that knows what he is doing tend not to funnel as easily as three ways with two persons who know what they are doing but – in the heath of the moment - may disagree on what has to be done… Your student knows what it means to ‘anticipate a parachute opening on his own’ and also knows how to save himself once the parachute opens. (Indeed, being clueless when it comes to steering and landing the parachute deems you unfit for the program – my place has lots of outs but you can get into situations that require DECISIONS between 2000 and 1000ft. We do not hesitate to mandate extra static-line training) Furthermore, the practice pulls during static-line training give the student extra confidence that he will be able to “pull for himself if need be” (and he NEEDS to pull or he fails the level…) As I said before, the ‘watershed’ to get into the program is the same as it was in the good old static-line progression, i.e. you are cleared for freefall. Next: Is the program economically viable? Well it sure as hell isn’t what the customer wants (“give me freefall & give it to me now!”) but lets say that keeping him alive and in one piece gives good long term prospects. It is a marketing nightmare however since several times a year I have to ‘talk a customer down’ (“easy tiger!”) to first get into the static-line course, see how that goes, then – if it goes well – he might get into the freefall course. As usual it is not always easy to convince people that most of us first learned how to walk before we could run and people seem to want to ‘schedule their freefall course in order to be back at the party in Amsterdam this weekend’ …then again, this is the same for al other forms of skydiving, due to weather – their own abilities and accomplishments are just one more factor. The thing is well suited for smaller DZ’s due to the economics of flying a C182. Also, with everybody screaming for staff nowadays, being able to accommodate the students with one instructor per student turns the logistics from a nightmare into an unpleasant dream – we should count our blessings even if they are few and far between… The student ends up with both more freefall time and more canopy-time for his bucks, so… Three of my former students became rated tandemmasters, several are competing on the national level, one got her instructors-license in Germany, some get married and have kids and a few became accomplished camera flyers. More important: In the long run my students tend to stay alive and in one piece most of the time; I like to think that our training has something to do with that. One of the most recent students – meet my 16 year old kid: http://members.home.nl/pcamlnd/video's/video's.htm (click on the camera – “speel af” means “play”) Actually, I had nothing to do with training him since al HIS freefall jumps in the program were made with former students of mine… however I do take credit for him being able to ride a bicycle …and he made eight tandemjumps with me before enrolling into the static-line course – a course I did not want to conduct, remembering how it was with the bicycle. The last jump Steven made last season he went ahead of me when I was doing yet another tandem. Solid as a rock, pulled stable and on time, landed within 15 meters of the target. As riggerrob often says: Hee! Hee! Hee!

True , however: line-attachment is between the cells and I was 'rearanging the groups', sort of... (Ah, if you people only spoke dutch! Then I could explain!