Liemberg

Hi Saskia, I don't want to hijack the thread into "merits and shortcomings of the dutch basic safety regulations" (the BVR) but uh... yes we have to. Makes you wonder if everybody always requests an exemption (par. 703 BVR) - " They Are Violating The BSR's - Somebody Spank Em!!!" "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Please reread my post for that was NOT what happened! The student never realized how much time had passed with the streamer that developed into a 'slow malfunction'. He NEVER looked at the ground while working on the problem ABOVE HIS HEAD. He could have and should have looked at his altimeter but didn't - after the cutaway he had 5 seconds under canopy. Furthermore, I (nor any other DZO) am not in business to prove Darwins point. People that don't have what it takes to jump safely on their own shouldn't be removed from the gene pool - they should be removed from the pleasure of jumping on their own. I own a box full of altimeters and yes - often that is a nuisance. Wanna talk about AAD maintenance? The way you always seem to end up with one reserve open and another rig in a muddy ditch? I would love to have certain things less complicated but I'm above all working on avoiding dents in my DZ. So sometimes a load has to wait cause we have to pick up an altimeter from the previous load. It is thoroughly possible that because of that, someone will miss the last load of the day. It might even rain the next day... Big deal... If they want to steer their canopy and end up in the middle of that one BIG field without OBSTACLES, to land against the wind, they should be upwind at the edge of that field at 2000ft and right above their target at 750ft. Wanna keep em on radio until they have their A-license? How are they going to find out where they are without an altimeter? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

The Netherlands too... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

I sincerely hope you keep waking up before pull time! Me? I had a horrible and frightening dream about Billvon, coming after me with a bat, shouting that we should not post the talk back stuff here ... anyone knows what that means?

http://www.skyrats.com/eng/training.htm#campana (My guess is that in the advanced class they 'll teach you how to swoop through the hole in the hedge without snatching it with your lines and looking stoopid...)

Wussing out ? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Does he own a brewery?

That was true maybe in the days with round mains and chest-mounted reserves. But nowadays people chop malfunctions. They may have a hard time recognizing one and they may have a hard time assessing the minimum safe altitude to determine their course of action (give it one more jerk or chop it? I have been there and others have been there too - I actually saved the day on occasion...) Real life story about a 'slow learner' - happened at my place several years ago. SL student jumps (jump nr 3 or 4 - cant remember exactly) from 3500ft and has a streamer (yes I know they are rare, but he had one, nonetheless) He doesn't do what he was trained to, but grabs his risers and shakes the canopy. After some 15 seconds of acceleration the canopy starts to open partially, reducing his speed to a level where the AAD doesn't work anymore. He plays around with the malfunction 'an eternity' longer and then, without looking at his altimeter he chops and has a five second reserve ride prior to landing. That was one of the most dangerous things I ever saw one of my students do. He had an altimeter but he never looked at it. OTOH I saw others that also had a mal who reported back in the line of "I couldn't get the twist out, it wasn't square and I was at 2000ft soooo...." (Telling all this in a public forum makes it sound as every other student has a mal but you know what I mean...) To sum it up - when he jumps something that he is supposed to chop when it malfunctions, a good altimeter is a prerequisite for a student, though it IS possible for the student to forget about it, 'in the heat of the moment'. Now only teach them to ALWAYS look at the dang thing when the parachute opens but not completely in the way as seen in the commercial...

I must confess I also chopped a few without ever looking at my altimeter. ( only one riser still attached - the other one wrapped around the slider, pilotchute that wouldn't come out of its pocket while I screamed passed a student I just dropped, releasing a tandem drogue and not decelerating at all...) Yet on other occasions I did make cutaway-decisions 'consulting my altimeter' and like you I carry 2 (normal + audio) most of the time. "better to realize you never looked than to look and realize the gadget is still in the cupboard..." "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Your concerns are completely justified. The first 'Skydiving Zen Master With Over A Thousand Jumps' I ever jumped with (as early as 1984) told me not to worry that he wasn't wearing an altimeter on his cheststrap (we had them on our cheststraps then for the convenience of our buddies in freefall) - He Was Going To Save The Day With Situational Awareness And Superior Internal Clock! He Was Going To Wave Off At 3500ft! After all - I had a huge altimaster on MY cheststrap and we would be right in front of each other... I just concentrate on the skydive! Well, what a learning moment I had there: I pulled out of a 2 way at 2200ft, while he was looking at his girlfriend that was flailing around us. Oops... so much for situational awareness and internal clocks ... (though you could say that mine worked better than his...hehehe...) And to all freeflyers that look way cool on video I would say: "If you are going to loose sight of ground and horizon - you better have fresh batteries in all your gadgets..." When it comes to 'shifting the focus' mine would be that you always cross-reference it and believe the most conservative assessment. By that I mean the following: "If your eyes tell you you are low and the altimeter says you're not - believe your eyes. If your alti says you are low - believe your alti... when something starts to beep and it may be prematurely - sort things out under canopy, not in freefall..." "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

"Define parachute for me." "Well uh... a device that...." And now you have your 100 jumps wonder with a slooowwww opening, a high slider, a twist and an almost-but-not-yet square canopy at ???? ft First time everything didn't quite work out as advertised... "Time flies when you are having fun..." He finds it hard to see what is actually going on with his canopy - is it getting any better? Why isn't that slider coming down? Damn - I thought I would miss this 'small patch of industrial haze' but apparently I ended up right above it - correction, in it ... Luckely your student was thoroughly trained not to be device dependent so he can immediately ascertain if it is still safe to cut away - or deadly. Whenever I play the game of guessing my altitude I look at where I am and then I look at my altimeter. Seems I give the horrible device some credit. Once I left a plane with a passenger at 12500ft and my alti got stuck at 11000ft - saw the cameraflyer for the second time around and thought 'this took longer than the alti shows...' Several times I saw a video of a 1800 jumps wonder that took a tandem down to cypres firing altitude. Altimeter was showing 3500ft (?) when he landed. "Somebody buy this guy a pair of glasses!" "No wait, we cant - that would make him device-dependent..."

Correction: I'm not the type of person that sues; in all likelihood, I'm the 'type of person' that gets sued. On one hand I get my customers to sign pieces of paper that say they will not sue me even if it is completely clear that I am to blame. On the other hand I try my utmost to keep them from killing themselves and / or end up in hospitals. I'm trying to get a perspective on things that is as realistic as possible. The legal aspect can be of consequence to me and is therefore interesting to me. Since 'IF YOU DON'T DRIVE IN THE CAR YOU WON'T HAVE A CAR ACCIDENT' has proven to be insignificant in a court of law, the 'DON'T GET IN THE PLANE' approach doesn't look very promising either... (Then again - I don't pay for my jumps most of the times...hehehe...) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Am I right to assume Pat isn't a reckless mechanic 'in your book'? But (for arguments sake) you are NOT in Pat's carefully overhauled Skyvan where he made just one honest mistake. You are in someone elses Skyvan and after the fact the NTSB proves that this person screwed up bigtime. (falsified log entries, non airworthy material - I don't have to paint the whole picture, now do I?) They never got caught before - in fact the crash that brings you in a wheel chair the rest of your natural life is the first one where all this comes to surface. If you don't sue (don't allow your insurance company to sue) you are fucked bigtime. You lose your job. You lose your income. The hospital bill is astronomical... Someone walks up to you saying - " You can have all the benefits your insurance entitles you to. However - read the small prints - we can sue anyone we want on behalf of you. If you have a problem with that don't sign on the dotted line. By the way - that is OUR wheel chair and we want it back if you don't sign..." If I were the victim and there was insurance cover I might. It might be out of my hands (i.e. not up to me to decide) from the start. Nothing personal - just the facts of life... From my experience (I'm a DZO remember?) I have been on 'the receiving end' up 'till now, when it comes to (the threat of) lawsuits. However, I never blamed the guy (one person - knock on wood) that sent a lawyer after me and my business. I have always perceived that he probably didn't have much to say about what was happening next. Yes it was frivolous. Yes it took time and effort. Yes, it never went to court. I can imagine things that DO go to court, however. So I spend a few euro's more on safety and a few euro's less on traveling the world skydiving my ass of... That can't be all bad, now can it...? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Yet, in many instances this is not all as clear cut as it seems. It would be nice to perceive skydiving as such an esoteric pastime that "normal relations" wouldn't work. The rest of the world however (where most of us do all sorts of things to make money) doesn't see it that way. They CAN take us to court and CAN win. Also, there are situations where the decision to sue is taken out of the hands of the party (the injured jumper) that is suing the DZ or the fellow skydiver. In name you find your jumping buddy against you in court, while in fact it is his insurance company that has decided to give it a shot. To say beforehand that such a case never can have any merit is also wrong IMHO. When we make our all too dangerous journey to the DZ by car and a reckless driver brings us in hospital, we would sue - that is, even if we wouldn't, our insurance company would sue... When we board the plane and a reckless mechanic brings us in the same condition in the same hospital, then I guess the same goes... If somebody knocks us out doing a hook turn landing in the outside packing area - way past the beer line and again we end up in the hospital in the same condition, I fail to see why that person is beyond suing because he is a 'fellow skydiver' I have seen relatives of a first jump student suing a DZ and knowing some of the facts of that case I wasn't at all surprised when the waiver was thrown out by the court. I am aware of some ridiculous and frivolous cases but the principle of accountability doesn't suddenly lose al merit just because parachutes are involved... Then again, suing Sun Path since you couldn't find any handles on a Javelin and were stopped by a cypres ?!?!? (skydiving mag Vol 22 nr 4 nov 2002) Last time I looked at one of those rigs I distinctly remember all handles were there... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Hey Andyman, I also downloaded 2 video's without a falter in the connection so I started to wonder what the problem was. Now I see. Maybe you could put some sort of a warning /request on the intro-page (" Listen you greedy bastards with downloadmanagers - don't suck up all the bandwidth... ") (I guess that could be phrased slightly more diplomatic but since most of the clientele are skydivers...

Now you're boasting! "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Some confusion here. I was replying to someone who complained he couldn't get things downloaded even if he tried it "in the middle of the night" Have a downloadmanager. ("fresh downloads" - supports multiple tries etc.) Have a cable connection. Have 3 computers in a network. Bought a new car yesterday... (Boasting? Me? Naaahhh....) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

It is always in the middle of the night somewhere on the planet. At the same it is broad daylight somewhere else... Edit: It shows that this is posted in the middle of the night while in fact I am typing this edit at 10:55 AM - coffeetime!

What is wrong with: "Hear it while unstowing your toggles and you may have passed the level - at least your timing for the pull was OK. Hear it while still in freefall - you failed the level but can still save the day when you ACT NOW"? Device dependency? This device doesn't do anything else than give loud beeps at a preset altitude (and when you got a headcold, or the batteries fail, or -whatever- sometimes it doesn't even do that ...) When all the DZ's jumpers wear a beeper and the whole staf wears a beeper - then why students cant have one? Calibrated well it cant distract them and when they are 'regaining heading etcetera' below their pull time it SHOULD distract them... Any half way intelligent student grasps the concept of a back-up. (You explain RSL and Cypres don't you?) He gets reminded that the AAD must be set and forgotten. Now remind him that the audible should be forgotten also and not be heard in freefall. Explain freefall noise. Explain what presure difference can do to your hearing. Just as the student starting this thread I fail to see the problem. At 500 ft the student you warned here is well under his reserve - for his cypres fired, unless he suffers a bad hair / broken altimeter / empty batteries day... "doomed from the start"... As for 'altitude awareness': remember the Danish FS4 team at a world cup in Turkey? They had brand new dytters with a software flaw (since then reprogrammed). Four 'experts' were stopped by their cypres... When a student doesn't have a certain device he cannot develop a bad habit with that device. But since he has so many other devices to develop bad habits with, this one is just another piece of equipment that should be explained with its "do's and don'ts"... From there on it is up to the student to develop (and MAINTAIN) good habits. (Give him one while he is stil a student and chances are he will listen to you....

From what I gathered, once the lanyard is disconnected from the riser(s), everything is disconnected... reservebridle + skyhook will stay inside your reserve container. (Under the pilotchute, according to Mr. Booth) If you hold on to both the steering toggles during the ground-breakaway you can re-assemble the whole thing 'on the spot' - the canopy 'stalls symmetrically' (flips over backwards) within a second, you 'unclick' your passenger and put him on top of your canopy (wind!). Get out of your harness (you are lying on your back/but there, aren't you?) and slide the risers back along the steering lines. Reconnect. Get back in your harness, grab your stuff and walk back. Check once Xtra, prior to packing, but 95% =OK... Thanx on behalf of the packing crew... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

I think you can extend that to more types of geese and add several 1000 feet to the possible altitude. I have seen a flock of migrating geese in the North of the Netherlands ABOVE us during the climb to altitude. At that moment the plane was reaching 6000ft ! They must have flown well above 6000ft AGL; I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it with my own eyes... They were using the strong uppers to cover more ground, so I think you can predict more or less when you would have a chance to see this (migratory season + specific set of weather conditions) The normal course of things however is that you rarely see birds flying higher than 1000ft AGL. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Apologies to all DZ.commers. "I thought he was doing his homework." (Yeah RIGHT...!!!) That is what u get when you give your kid your old computer and cable access to the internet. OTOH of course HE was the one who spotted the Coca Cola DZ first. Is he full-of-shit? Read the profile! Then again he did jump - first time when he was 8 years old and now - at age 14 - he has +6 tandems under his belt. He can be trusted to do the most important thing during a skydive - pulling before you are back on the ground... http://www.skycam.nl/photos/at_steven.html (We are working on the 'holding on to the ripcord' part...) The "camguy" is of course somewhere-in-the-future but he is better than I am with the video-computer; last season he sort of gave up on packing for the students since he could make more and easier money editing videos for the camerajumpers. AND he does most of the ground video for the students-course-video's - so it has some truth in it... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

http://www.funnygames.nl/spelletjes/891.html 1.The punishment for cloud-busting is severe, but going through industrial haze seems to be OK

But where did Raoul Duke go? And - another thing the management would like to know - who's gonna pay for the damaged carpet? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...

Dr. Gonzo, is that you? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words...