NewClearSports

It was actually my rigger (Also a very experienced BASE jumper) that recomended that I avoid terminal with this PC. This was because he was the 1st to test it, and was not happy with the opening. So far I've done a couple 10 sec. delays and I can agree it is just coming out too fast. Release the PC and instant Canopy above your head. Luckily it is an instant sniveling canopy, but what happens the 1st time it's packed sloppy? It is also MUCH larger then what was on my Javelin before. (26" ZP) I did a search and found where Bill Booth said the time from PC release to Canopy out of the bag should be 0.4 - 0.8 Sec. I know this is happening alot faster then that. So basicly the PC is too big. I know this, but it is brand new and I just spent $180 with shipping on it and I don't want to just order another one. So what I want to know is what can happen using a PC that is too large? This rig is used primarily for Hop & Pop's but I would also form time to time like to jump with it from full altitude. Again thanks for all your help.

I ordered a new PC a couple weeks ago because I had 2 mals in a row doing Hop & Pops. Because of this I requested a larger PC, but what I got was a huge f-111 32" PC. Now it is great on Hop & Pop's, but the snach force is somthing feirce going terminal. My question is What can happen jumping this thing terminal? Hard Openings? Line Dump or Bag Strip? Damage to the Rig? Damage to the main canopy? Thanks for your input! Mike

Exactly! I think any combination of setting up too tight on the gates, getting target fixation trying to make the gates and loosing your depth perception from being over water can easily lead to disaster. Last season running the couse over grass many of us inc. myself still had times were we set up too tight and we got a vert. on the gates which meant a 0 for the round, BUT we did seem to know when to pull out of the dive anyway. The ground is getting big and this angle is too steep, time to let up.

Hey Peter, Yes last year was over land and there were no injuries that I know of. I've been thinking alot about what might be different when we play over water, and here are some things that I found personaly. I did a jump yesterday at sunset and wanted to swoop the pond through the couse. As you know if you go for the couse you are in the centre of the pond so using the side as an out is not an option. My thinking was like this... I will set up just a little tigher to the couse entry gate then usual so that I can safely make it out without coming up short and going for a swim, but I won't care if I'm a little high on the gate, it's not a comp. So here is what happened with my swoop, I initiated the 270 using the gate as my target as usual, but what happened of couse was that I found myself too tight on it and diving at it too steeply. Because of realizing this I rushed the turn around pulled out of the dive to find myself flying 20ft over the gates, and doing a big "Peter Pan" over the entire couse not even coming close to touching the water. I should know better then to set up too tight. Its better too far then too tight. Being too tight leads to a very steep entry angle, being too far only leads to a shorter swoop. The spot I should have been setting up with No Wind as it was on that evening, shoud have been past the far end of the pond, but as I said I changed my spot because of not wanting to get wet. This was stupid of me, and its an easy trap to fall into. I gota run. I will continue later.

One important thing I need to add! Although the water might have contributed in the loss of altitude awareness. It was the WATER that SAVED HIS LIFE !! I got an update today and things are looking good. Thanks to our DZ owners Mike & Tara Pitt.

This guy was humble, not a beer line swooper. We practiced the past two weekends over the pond and away from the crowds. However it did seem that he might have been not all that excited of getting wet. Conditions had to be good so that he knew he would make it out or he would just practice beside the pond. He never got wet untill his accident. The rest of our group each had turns coming up short and going for a little swim. From my list I would probably remove #5 and maybe even #4 in this case, but there are additional things we think about when swooping water, especially for the 1st time.

It was most likly this phenomina. But what is it about the water that is different then grass for this to happen?

Peej, this was great information. I do believe this most likly was a case of fixating on the water. It was his first competition over the water, and it's a first for many of us including myself as the pond is a new addition to our DZ this season. When talking about Psychology of pond swooping, I'm thinking that many of us may be thinking too much about things like 1. Am I going to get my new container dirty 2. Am I going to have to pay for a reserve repack 3. Am I going to ruin my AAD, my protrack or whatever 4. Are all those people lined up along the shore going to laugh at me if I chow. 5. I will look so much cooler if I drag a little water. Ect. Ect. Ect. I know this stuff SHOULD be out of your mind when setting up for that 270, but are we suscessful pushing it out of our minds, or is it all there effecting our decision making at the moments it is so crutial to be totaly focused on executing a good safe setup.

Morris - newclearsports@hotmail.com

Today was the First Canadian Ontario CPC. It was held at Skydive Burnaby over a brand new big Pond (300 x 150) just officially completed a few weeks ago. Competitors including myself were excited and nervous. A few of us regular jumpers had been practicing for the past two weeks. Of our little group one very experienced jumper with over 20 years in the sport, over 6000 jumps had fallen in love with swooping during the last couple years. Over the winter he had professional coaching, during practice he was awesome hitting the gates 9 / 10 times. His distance was also the best and most consistent of our group. He was very current, very heads up. Well this morning my friend, my fellow jumper, my mentor (with 6000 jumps) flew his 90 Velocity straight into the pond (vertically) and suffered massive injuries. I don’t want to give names, I’m NOT posting this as an incident. I’m in shock, I pulled out of the comp. I just want to talk to swoopers and there experiences to try and understand what might of happened and why. When watching the video and also watching first hand, it seems his set-up was pretty good. Nothing was rushed and altitude seemed ok. After completing his 270 turn while reaching for his rears he was maybe just a little low, probably should have went to toggles and this is where it all went bad. There seemed to be a hesitation, like he was thinking about the fact he might go swimming on this one, then for whatever reason he continued a slow rear riser turn (same direction as the 270) and towards shore thus continuing the dive right until impact. It was a near vertical impact. I can’t help but think that the fixation of the water probably had something to do with this. It was like a “deer in the headlights” type of reaction. Competing over the pond was new to him, to me as well, to a lot of us. Any helpfull advise from experienced swoopers will be taken seriously, thankfully and shared. Praying for my friend and a healthy recovery.

My 1st X-braced was a Velo loaded at 1.9WL. I didn't like it that much, it just felt too big, so I only kept it 100 jumps or so. I then got a brand new Xaos 21 (2.2 WL), the price was great! (Got a deal - ask around) and I can't say enough about how great that canopy is. Opening are the best I have ever had of any canopy period. I will never sell this canopy, it is for me the perfect fun jumping parachute. And swoops are great, maybe just a bit weak in the bottom end. I now have a JVX Hybrid (2.4WL) with Comp trim along with my Xaos, and I can tell you for sure, JVX is for EXPERIENCED X-BRACED PILOT ONLY !!! This is an extremly ground hungery canopy. To give you an example, I did a hop and pop from 7000FT and the rest of the group did a Sit jump and opened at 3500FT. We were all landing at about the same time, and I wasn't the last one down!! I have also had the opertunity of jumping a Xaos-27 and they are sweet as well. I would say the openings are almost as soft, but maybe a bit more twitchy. Let me say this, I will (and have) jumped my Xaos-21 at 2.2WL when flying a Wing Suit, but I would NOT consider this with any other X-braced wing. Hope this helps. Cheers

Hi Brian, I took your course with Dayle as well and it was amazing. Even though it was the most indepth course I have ever taken, it still left me wanting more!!! (I've read the book about 20 times now) I would love to do an Advanced course with you as well! I want you to teach me how to build parachutes and show me the way's of "The Force" Are you looking for an apprentice Master Jedi Brian ? Look forward to seeing you again this summer. Mike

I gave him an extra bridal that I had (Standard BOC length) and he had it modified by his rigger to work on his PUD. I'm not completely sure of the lengths but if I remember correctly the PUD was about 4.5 - 5 FT and the BOC was closer to 6 FT. Just tell wings you want the longer (Standard BOC lenght) Bridal. I'm sure it's not a problem.

I come from a DZ where Wings are very popular. Three of the guys I jump with regularly have PUD's and I have a BOC. Here is what weve found with Wings Containers. #1 the bottom of the container has rounded corners, so we don't turn the bag, Put it straigh in lines at the bottom, bridal at the top. (PUD or BOC) #2 Keep on top of your main PC. If you start getting line twists you may need a new PC or have the kill line lengthened. You will find that the Wings container holds the bag well, so you need a decent snatch force to have a clean on heading opening. #3 One of my friends (with PUD) had troble with the bag spinning on deployment, causing line twists. After trying several things, the biggest improvment came from lengthing the bridal. PUD containers come with a much sorter bridal then the BOC's Also Note - We are all tall guys (over 6') and Freefly (big suits) therefor more burble. We all jump sub 100 HP Canopys, therefor we hate line twists. #4 You need a good rigger familiar with Wings to get a good Reserve Repack. Found myself in a pinch for a Repack and then had the riser covers poping out untill I could have it packed again. Other guys said the same thing. #5 Very Confortable. We all agree on this. Well that is about all I can think of. We all are very happy with the containers, and 2 of the PUD guys are on there 2nd one. I'd buy another for sure, just wish they had the skyhook as an option. Cheers

***We were not pleased with the solution so I returned the canopy. Atair refunded the total amount Quote This is good to here! If I had a "Satasfaction garantee" in writing, I would consider buying from them again (Probably the X-1), because they do make some amazing canopys.

I'm completely with you on the Skyhook, I think it will be a must for my next rig too. I think the Vector is awsome, I just HATE the Pig! If you can loose the Pig Logo thing, go for the Vector

***I have a Cobalt 135. That is a softest open canopy I have ever jumped like falling into a pillow case. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think thats the hit or miss phenomenon NewClearSports was talking about. Quote Exactily!!! I would even go as far as to say probably 90% (or more) of them open great, but what happens to the other 10% of us stuck with ones hurting us? Now it sounds like to me, MAX had a good one, but after the reline things changed, and it is possible that its now a bad one. If this is the case, get it fixed, don't let your neck get screwed up, and don't put up with BS about "It must be sloppy packing", "you need a smaller PC", "you should dump in a track" ect. ect. At least you have the argument it wasn't like that before the reline and everything else is the same. I'm alot more experienced and knoledgeable now about canopy flight and aerodynamics ect. thanks to more jumps more experience on other canopys and Brian Germain's course (Can't say enough about how great that was, and Brian's an amazing teacher). So looking back on it now, I wasn't confident enough at that time to tell Atair where to shove that Cobalt. They actually convinced me that maybe it was just me. BUT definetly there was something wrong with it and after a couple of weeks when the guy I sold it to called me back to say whats up with these openings, all I could do is give him the same BS Atair gave me. I still feel like sh*t for selling that thing (even though I practicaly gave it away) because that's not the way I like to do business, and either should it be for Atair.

***I hope my neck survives the next few openings Quote I'm sorry but I have to pipe up here because I still have neck issues 3yr after the Cobalt that I had. Now I will agree with anyone that the Cobalt is an awsome flying wing, but IMO with openings it is hit and miss. Some open great, some open like crap. The one I bought was slaming me every 1 out of 10 jumps (on average), after about 40 jumps (from new) I sent it back to Atair. It was test jumped, they said there was nothing really wrong with it, but they put a bigger slider on for overall softer openings. Well the openings were on average a little softer, but I still got slamed time to time. It got to where I hated pull time, because It was like russian rullett weather I would have another pulled neck mussle. Anyway to make a very long story short, I did everything that Atair suggested, smaller PC, Dumping in a track, ect. ect. What the end solution was for me, to sell it cheap and buy a Xaos. Since that day, I have never had a single hard opening anywere close to what I had on my Cobalt. With the Xaos I went back to a bigger PC 32" (Which buy the way is alot safer to avoid mals, exp. when doing hop & pops), I can dump in any body position I like, I don't even need to slow down after a breakoff for HD. Now I'm not posting this to promote Xaos, I'm just saying that I think Atair should take there "hard opening" issues more seriously and should work harder to resolving the heart of the issue, rather then just going on with there bandaid fixes of smaller PC,s, Dumping in a track, different packing tecniques, ect. ect. It also bothers me to here Dan say to just jump it and see what happens. Its not his neck getting torn. And believe me repeated hard openings can cause severe neck injuryies that can last years and years.[url]

Just wondering what most riggers recomend for the buyer to do when the lower brake lines need lengthining on a new main? I just bought a new JVX with HMA and need to lengthen the lower steering lines a few inches. Should I ask Daedalus to supply the lower lines or will my rigger have this stuff? Thanks

Funny, I like the continuous lines of my Xaos! I think it is part of what makes the canopy what it is. The best openings of any X-braced, lighter front riser pressure. ect. It also has more life in the line set with continuous lines. I feel confortable putting 5 - 600 jumps on the lineset (replacing steering lines at 300). I do agree if your talking strickly speed and performance cascaded is better, but that is why I just bought a JVX for swooping (Although has more to offer then just Cascades). If you want Cascaded HMA you could chose a different wing. Anyway for me the Xaos is awsome for Freefly, Camera, Big Way Head Down Camps, Fun jumps ect. and I still have fun with the landings. If you just want swoop distance and conpetition results probably JVX or Velocity will be better. Although some pilots can really make the Xaos-27 go the distance! Just my 2 cents.

OH - I just read the speel by Bryan Burke. I guess my previous post idea wouldn't be good enough for SDAZ. But I do think it would be good enough for most reasonable sized DZ,s. (1 or 2 otters) Well we as swoopers are only 20% of the customer base, so who cares what we want. After reading that I no longer plan to make any trips to SDAZ. Too bad too because it use to be my favorit "Vacation" DZ. I think they are just getting TOO BIG and they are getting the attitude that comes with getting that big. "We don't need your business", well that's ok I will take my business elsewhere.

The solution is simple. Jump ticket price is the same wether you get out at 5K or 14K. Any DZ owner would know that if 1/3 or 1/2 the load gets out at 5K but pays the same price as the guys getting out at the top, it will save enough money on fuel with the lighter load to cover the fuel needed for the extra pass. I know most DZ's price by altitude, but with multiple passes it does cost them money. OR Book loads that are strickly Hop & Pop Loads, say every 4th load or something. Safety does come with a cost, and we can't expect the DZ owners to absorb it all. The swooping comunity should work together with the DZ owners to come to a safe and cost effective solution.

This was in reference to the 1st X brace created by a Argentinean accuracy jumper named Daniel Esquivel. He also says "Most importantly, by spreading the load internally rather than externally, the parachute had the planform of a 9-cell with the "Line Drag" of a 7 cell" Anyway I do agree with you that it does greatly reduce distortion and I think that Brian is basicly saying this in easy to understand terms. Oh, and also note we call 7 cell's (21s) and 9 cell's (27s) so there is a hint that it makes the canopy perform as if it had more cells.

I actually took this info from Parachute and it's Pilot, 3rd Edition Page 103. (Germains book) section Cross-Braces So you are actually correcting Brian not me. It's not quoted exactily, but he does say "he made a 7 cell canopy look and fly more like a 9 cell canopy" "with the line drag of a 7 cell"

Sorry if this is off topic, but Sam I wanted to thank you. I took your advise on that Reserve. I got myself a PD 143. Did you know a Tempo 120 reserve is only rated for 132 Lbs.... 132LBS. Who has an exit weight less then that!! I bet alot of people don't know how much they are overloading these things.