SBS

"Why is underloading a cross-braced canopy a bad idea? Does it create problems with opening, stability, or landings? I understand cross-bracing is more expensive, and makes bigger pack volume, and you don't get the performance benefits until you load up the canopy." This, I am not exactly sure of the answer, but I'm sure that Chris could probably give you some info. As far as what I do know, I believe that the reasons that you stated are some of the main points...i.e. - why waste the extra money and pack volume, if you are not going to benefit? I don't know that is actually a "bad" idea to underload one. It would be like buying a high tech computer when all you're going to do is word processing and e-mail. That would be my main point...I do believe that there are some issues like opening, etc. that may be effected by underloading, but again, if Chris could give you answers, that would be best. Steve

"Compare that to a new rig that is $6500+....." Mind you that that includes the solid gold 3-rings and articulation. :-) Steve

"YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LOAD AN X-BRACED CANOPY HEAVILY TO GET BETTER PERFORMANCE RELATIVE TO OTHER CANOPIES! " It's nice that you are so sure of this that you need to shout, but keep in mind that the 1.7-1.8 minimum was a recommendation, not a requirement. Also keep in mind that it came directly from a manufacturer, not some random schmuk making an observation. Not that Chris isn't a schmuk, don't get me wrong. :-) j/k Chris. Steve

I have to point this out from the original post... "(apart from the bollox about design faults)" This, to me, doesn't sound like it was meant to get into a political discussion regarding the parachute industry, simply a question about a canopy's flight characteristics. I don't want to be an ass, but I just can't get over the fact that every single time something simple comes up regarding the Crossfire, people are relentless in trying to discredit it. I, for one, think that the Cobalt is a decent canopy...I don't discredit it because of disagreements that I have with some of Atair's business practices. I don't know what to say...it's incredibly frustrating to see this happen. I won't deny that this whole situation sucks, and that Icarus could have handled things differently...there is a whole story to everything in life, though. I am more familiar than some, but still don't know everything that went on. Knowing what I do know, I think that Icarus did what they thought was best for everyone involved; Hindsight is 20/20. So, can we stick to the subject, the canopy? Steve

Definitely the pilot, but that is not to say that the canopy has nothing to do with it. The Spectre and the Vengeance are very different canopies. Once you find the sweet spot on the Vengeance, though, it will out swoop the Spectre, guaranteed. Steve

It's a fun canopy to fly. It has great openings, very responsive, good speed, great lift, nice bottom end flare. IMHO, it's at the top of the game for this genre of high performance canopy. Steve

Well, you have 100 posts, and 2 jumps. I would say that this would support the theory. :-) Steve

Thanks for your comments Chris. "(I discovered a while back, never, never say "for your experience level", you'll only challenge the caller to prove his ability over the phone... which is impossible.)" This is something that comes up often, is that someone can always lie to you over the phone. There are two ways to handle this, as far as I am concerned... 1) Contact the dropzone 2) Accept what the customer says. We are doing our best to keep people safe...if they choose to lie to us, there is very little we can do. We can't be expected to make decisions that are correct for someone if they are not being straight with us. That is their own decision, and they will have to live with the consequences. I believe that our moral liability stops well short of this situation. "Now that I'm politically correct, please do not think "cross-brace" is a satanic symbol." Don't get me wrong, I think crossbracing is great. It's just that at this time, along with crossbracing comes small canopies. Until we can make a crossbraced canopy that does not have to be loaded at 2.0, I don't believe that they have any place on the backs of inexperienced jumpers. The big issue is that people that don't know better hear that crossbracing makes a better canopy, the fact that they are not ready to move down to a small canopy like that becomes almost secondary. Maybe all canopies will be crossbraced someday. For now, though, I think that they are the end of a progression, that should include getting to know the ins and outs of everything that comes before, including a Spectre, a Sabre/SabreII, a Crossfire/Stiletto/Nitron, etc. People are under the false impression that crossbracing and small canopies produce swoops, so are in a hurry to get there. I think the choice is whether someone wants to jump down in size and go fast now, or progress through learning, and become a truely impressive canopy pilot. Steve

Thanks...I think. :-) It's all about keeping people safe...unlike myself. There were many points (and there still are) where I didn't know enough to know that I didn't know something. I will speak openly about the decisions that I have made, the mistakes, the low hook turns, the impacts (luckily without injury), etc. The reason we are hired as sales people is because we have experience. Shoot me the day I claim to know everything...until then, though, I hope that us...um...people...can show people a different way (than I took at least) to being impressive canopy pilots, on the smallest hankercheifs possible. :-) Steve (Note that I did not...repeat DID NOT refer to myself as a canopy nazi before editing my post)

"Tolerance, people! " I second that...although it does seem like the idea was kind of sort of dumb. :-) "I didn't see the clip and have NO expertise in this area, but I don't see why if this stunt was rigged "properly" it would be much more dangerous than a Mr. Bill jump." Key being "If it were rigged properly". :-) The main problem that I have heard of is the person at the top getting smacked with the recoiling bungee. That was done in a Mr. Bill scenario, though, meaning someone starting from 0, not already being in freefall at 120. Steve

Chris, you make some good points, but I still have to lean towards Lisa on this one. Mind you that this is coming from the point of view of someone who deals with people ordering canopies on a daily basis. It is not constant, but all to often for my taste that someone calls wanting a canopy that, in my opinion, is way too small for him/her. I'm sorry, but regardless of how the canopy is being loaded, I will not sell a high performance canopy to a newbie. I understand that there are many people who have started jumping high performance canopies early, but they are not the norm. We are not talking about legal liability here, even though it can come into play, we are talking about moral liability. We are talking to people who do not know what they are doing (still speaking of the true "newbie") and they are looking to us to point them in the right direction. I have not always followed other people's advice myself, and I feel lucky to be alive. The difficulty is trying to communicate that to someone who thinks that because they have jumped and lived 50 times that they are king of the hill. The problem is that people say that they understand, but they don't even know everything that can go wrong. Sure, they can give you a laundry list, but how many of them actually understand the malfunctions, the turns, the dives, etc.? Not many at all. I completely agree with you that there is a huge difference between jump number and experience. As such, though, we cannot say "oh, ok, you have 500 jumps, you should be on a Xaos". As Bill Von said, there may be a day when Crossbraced canopies are the norm...we're not there, though. We are still in a world where landing a crossbraced canopy and coming in at the speed that 2.0 brings takes skill...that skill comes with experience...experience on high performance canopies, working up to that point. You are welcome to make the call on what you would like to jump, as you are well experienced...there are people out there, though, that are under the impression that downsizing is going to answer all their questions. It is people like that that we, as a couple of gear dealers fear. I fear being in the air with those people, but more so, I fear for them. The fact is, like you said, in order to fly a crossbraced canopy, you need to load it at almost 2.0. For most people, that is going to mean downsizing a great deal, if they are not experienced in high performance canopy flight, and along with that comes a great deal of danger when something goes wrong (be that opening, flight, landing, being cut off, etc.). If everything goes right, a student could land a small high performance canopy...but things aren't always going to go right. On that same note, I don't see it as a good choice to use the example of a few for whom something has worked as a good point of reference for the rest of the world. Great, someone is getting students on small canopies...I won't sell them one, and I won't sell one to another person who says "hey, I saw that other guy jumping one". They very well may be the exception...I'm not going to risk that, though. It's not fair to betray their trust like that when they are looking to you to help them progress in the sport. Another issue with downsizing is when there are people who go down more quickly then they should, they will be landing faster, but at the same time, have their longterm canopy skills decline, because they will not have the ablility to fly the shit out of their canopy until much later. This goes for learning most anything...you may memorize the multiplication tables, but if you want to make change for a dollar, you're going to have to learn to add/subtract. You may memorize a few phrases to use in a restaurant in Mexico, but that doesn't qualify you to be a translator. To get truely good at something, you don't memorize it, you learn it from the ground up (i.e.-fly the shit out of your canopy before you downsize). I don't think that the frustration that Lisa was venting was geared towards people with thousands of jumps such as yourself...the issue for me, is generally that when people are wanting to downsize faster than I believe they should, they justify it with "well, I'm going to come in and land straight". That is when I ask the question, "then why do you want a high performance canopy?". I just don't believe that people should be going to small high performance canopies before knowing the ins and outs of larger ones (which doesn't necessarily mean 270's on landing, but does mean front riser approaches, turns to land, etc)...I stand firm in my belief that that is the safest way to progress. Steve

"And then there are some of us that get excited when the wind dies. Surfs up!!" I'll second that. :-) Steve

"Yeah, thats why I was wondering.....seemed like an awfully low jump number to be doing something like that...i dunno. Now that I re-read it, looks like he might have meant that Rob started jumping with him when he had 40 board jumps, like someone already pointed out...." Actually, I think that that may be the case here. I do know people who have started jumping the board very early, though, meaning 50 or 60 jumps. They are doing fine, but I still think it's insane, and lucky that they're ok. Steve

"Just curious....but I think I read somewhere that Rob Harris first jumped a board at 40 jumps... Maybe it was a typo?" Meaning absolutely no disrespect to Rob, just because someone does something does not mean that it was the best idea in the world. Putting a board on your feet is best left until later, when other types of flying have been mastered, and one has an extreme level of comfort and skills have been mastered. I know people who have done things like skysurfing and camera, etc. at very few jumps, and although it can turn out ok, I would most definitely not recommend it. I only have a handful of board jumps (+/- 25), but think it's a blast. It's hard, though, to dedicate the time and money to the discipline that is required in order to be safe (relatively). As I recommend with anything in this sport (and this world, for that matter), if it is important enough that you make it a priority, go big. Steve PS - Here's a pic from last weekend...more to follow in the next couple of months... :-)

yeah, www.fireflysuits.com Steve

"I know this is not the topic of this post...but for all it's worth...gay, lesbian or straight...we are all family no matter what the sexual preference...or for that matter, ethnicity, religion, or any other differences we may have..." *tear*that was way too deep and thought provoking. "one thing we ALL have in common...we LOVE skydiving!! Ok, so i'm a liberal...kick that Bush ass & his admin out office!!" Oop, you made up for it. :-) Steve

I have heard good and bad regarding the companies that you mentioned, but not bad enough to really discourage one or the other...I have to say, though, considering looks, quality, and customer service, IMHO, Firefly rocks all. Steve

Before the very end, I thought that this thread was being hijacked by someone trying to make it "nice"...I was about to complain, but was glad to see that we are above such things. :-) STeve

:-) I'm sitting here laughing so hard, I almost spit the rest of it out. Steve

Is it seriously still on my chin?!?! No....seriously....where?!?! I thought I got it all. Could someone please spit on a napkin and wipe my chin for me?!?! Where's my mom when I really need her?!?! :-) Steve

A wise man once said... Masturbation is like...well, it's like...like hitting a tennis ball...against a brick wall. It can be fun...it can be fun...but it's not a game... :-) Steve

From my experience, more important than the canopy size is the container type and how tight it is. The snatch force which pulls the pin and gets the bag out of the container initially is the most important job of the pilot chute by itsself. Once the bag is in the airstream, it can open itsself...the pilot chute is there as an aide to make the deployment cleaner. Vector, for example, does not recommend small pilot chutes for any reason. I, personally, won't have one that is under 24", but prefer a 26", just because I don't see a reason to have one that small...there isn't really a benefit. Some may say that they fear hard openings, but that shouldn't be an issue until you get larger, up to 30", etc. Just my 2 cents. steve

Actually, there are a couple of people who give people rides, at least there have been. Not sure who is doing it lately, if anyone. Your only bet would be to continuing to try to contact the drop zone. Give them a call if you can, that would be the easiest ( (909)657-3904 ). I would bet that they can work something out for you. Steve

I wish the moderators could zap people through their keyboards whenever people post stupid sh*t. I know who you are Steve. And I'm comin for you. Punk. You need to get your ass down to Perris so we can jump together again. We can skydive while you're down here too! And where is J~ with my jumpsuit. Been like two f'n years. I'll ask. I may turn gay just for you Steve. Um...I'm flattered. Anytime you generalize or stereotype you're wrong! Now THATS funny! LOL.............Seb Steve PS - for those of you who don't know, we are soooo not gay.

Shhh!!! Don't tell anyone. :-) I didn't say you HAD a donkey sized one...said you ARE a donkey sized one. :-) BIG difference. he he he Steve