indiana

Dear Kim, The above mentioned Bazooka test chamber is a normal pressure chamber (like the FXC test chamber, to simulate a skydive). It is not designed nor able to do any tests concerning static electricity. Happy landings, Indiana

Dear Bill, Thank you for your advice. I just make use of my right to post anonymously. Of course I have a reason to do so, however, my reason is not in your listing. Neither do I feel addressed as being amongst those who abuse the freedom of anonymous posting to slam and not want to be held accountable for any of his/her statements. An anonymous poster is not to be trusted as his or her statements are not based upon clear facts. So far did I, IMHO, only post statements of which relatively easy could be traced and checked as being correct. That I did this anonymous is an irrelevant factor. I would be more concerned about those who have no scruples in impetuously giving names to anonymous posters. Especially, as in my case, the name mentioned doesn’t even ring a bell: Quote: Or do i have to say KAREL. Please be honest with yourself and just say who you are. Is it because you don't want to be known in the outside world. Unquote (4XTTTOM, Sep 2, 2004, 8:04 AM) This comes very close to a personal attack, not even to mention a hit below the belt as the person in question is probably not even aware of this. Blue skies, Indiana P.S. This is a forum thread about a LIFE SAVING DEVICE. Instead of straight forward answers on my straight forward questions I receive only (nasty) replies about me being anonymous. However, people who are requesting for an answer and are not anonymous do not receive any answer either. That is the real issue here.

Dear Tom, I prefer to call it an information campaign instead of a hate campaign. You are right: Making a point of me being anonymous is Bull…t. The subject here is not who I am. The subject is that the Vigil has problems and that questions are not answered. Other Vigil product representatives wrote that too… I take a pick out of several unanswered questions: 1. The Vigil activation at 3000ft in Deland? 2. The Vigil activation at Z. Hills and the ground activation of the same unit after the repack? That means, with reference to question 2, I do not want to hear that Terry Pike pinched a wire while closing the box thus caused a misfire! A Flemish expression, free translated as: “All who does what he can is an honest man.” It is the honesty so-far I have some problems with. Indiana

Dear Tom, First let me congratulate you with the remarkable improvement of your English since your former message. I do not recall that I ever mentioned anything about the relationship between you and Mr Smolders otherwise than he being your boss neither that he was controlling you. So stop putting up a smokescreen and let’s just stick to the facts OK? Once again read your own manual page 18 in which is stated: The bronze filters ensure protection against the intrusion of pollution such as dust and provides a certain amount of resistance to water.” This is mentioned UNDER 4.1 BOX and NOT UNDER 4.2 POWERPACK TOM! I was never challenging the product because it is not 100% water resistant but this thing seems already to activate when it only smells water. Therefore I remain to my statement that the phrase “a certain amount of resistance to water” is untrue and the least misleading! KAREL? I am anonymous on this forum. I hereby do state however that in real live my name is not Karel. I recommend you to be careful by guessing after people’s names or why they wish to do so anonymously. FYI There are many more people concerned about the Vigils “safety” record than just this Karel. Once again let’s go back to the facts OK? FACT: 1. The activation of a Vigil at 3000 ft (during the opening sequence of the main canopy) (1st generation Vigil and still waiting for an answer) 2. An error in the control unit of a Vigil in use in Slovenia. (2nd generation Vigil) 3. A Vigil switching itself off during the jump or in the plane, also in Slovenia (2nd generation Vigil) 4. A Vigil that just won’t switch on even when the battery has been unplugged and plugged in again. 5. A Vigil that suddenly activates after the rig has been exposed to a very limited amount of water. Out of these 5 incidents, 3 were potential killers (fact 1, 3 & 5) and 4 out of 5 were with the 2nd generation Vigil (2,3,4 & 5). As in "Don’t mention the facts, just shut up?" Happy landings, INDIANA

Dear Tom, With reference to the article of Nadine (blueshrew, Aug 30, 2004, 11:10 AM) and the various replies on her message, your quote as being the Sales Manager of VIGIL AAD really struck me: You’re wrong. You should consult your own company’s website: www.vigil.aero, choose downloads and User Manual v2.0.2. It says clearly on Page 18: 4.1 box “The case is equipped with two positive locking connectors, two integrated bronze filters and a stainless steel closing screw. The bronze filters ensure protection against the intrusion of pollution such as dust and provides a certain amount of resistance to water.” While you’ll find on Page 19: 4.2 powerpack “It is submerged in epoxy to ensure total water resistance.” You are not the only one who is misinformed as many dealers have been mislead about the water resistance. For instance: http://www.skydivejersey.net: chooses shop-bestsellers-06. Vigil) It is "Water resistant" to a limited degree. The Vigil is conceived in such a way that it resists a long time to any water infiltrations thanks to its bronze filter and its aluminum alloy box. http://www.tso-d.com/Vigil.htm:The Vigil General Assets: • Water resistant This latest misfire is once more a serious issue. The rig seems to have been wet in such a limited degree that the skydiver in question even saw no reason to dry the reserve immediately. The Vigil was not supposed to fire and yet it did! This means that AAD’s statement “a certain amount of resistance to water” is actually another untruthful statement, making the Vigil AAD unfit for use in humid conditions. What scares me most is that when an error has been determined a Vigil seems to activate instead of switching itself off, as it is supposed to do. (Even at ground level.) At April 5 2004, AAD’s Managing Director Mr. Jo Smolders (your boss) wrote in a statement that was published on the USPA Website the following: “A Vigil must fire only when necessary” (http://www.uspa.org) choose news/ notices/ equipment bulletins/ all Vigils to be replaced/ view the explanation) I am really interested to hear what the excuse for this activation this time is going to be…. Blue skies, Indiana

Open minded? Like the safety bulletins we have seen, which cost almost the life of a student? You exactly wrote what they thought: just an engineering project with certain parameters/variables. By doing so, they forgot some other relevant issues. Nope, there are however not to many skydiving companies where the only skydiving experience is 8 tandemjumps made by the employees of a co-supplier. AAD has proven that their knowledge of skydiving and skydive technologie is far below the limit. Quote

Dear Kim, Don’t shoot the piano player. I did not create all these problems, Advanced Aerospace Designs did this themselves. So, pointing a finger at me and using expressions such as me having a lack of personal integrity and something to hide (your reply to me) plus ulterior motives and something to gain (your reply to Ron) is a bit out of the direction. I on the other hand just like to point in the right direction, my only concern is the safety of skydivers and I have no hidden agenda. I would never criticise if this was a good product coming from a reliable company. Time after time Advanced Aerospace Designs is promising their problems are solved and each time new problems are surfacing. Regards, Indiana PS In order to make life easy for everyone, I took the liberty to number the employees of the 4 different companies, of which your attached picture is composed, added their skydiving skills plus involvement in the project: 2,3 and 12 are employees of Declerck Electronics (designer of all Vigil electronics and owner of the Vigil software source codes). Skydiving experience: 8 tandem jumps (all together) 7, 8, 15 B&B Controls (the owner, his wife and the engineer). B&B is the actual manufacturer of the Vigil. Skydiving experience: 0 jumps 16 Sole employee of Advanced Aerospace Designs Skydiving experience: 0 jumps Jump experience of the people involved in design, manufacturing and sales: 8 Tandemjumps. This makes by my opinion their slogan "Vigil Designed and Engineered by 3RD Millennium Skydivers” a little exaggerated. 1,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,13,14 and 17 are employees of the French dealer: Pack Plus (www.packplus05.com). This French dealer operates out of Gap (800 miles south of Brussels) and is only since February 2004 involved in the Vigil. I.e. seven months after the Vigils introduction.

*** Indiana", If you have something you feel is worth saying then I think you should have enough integrity to put your name behind it. I wonder why the anonymous post? Maybe next time you could at least go out of your way to create a fake user profile. [/unquote] Are you, due to the fact that I post anonymously, insinuating that my information is not correct? I (re-) checked the forum rules and as far as I understood is there no rule against anonymous posting. Many forum users (not just at DZ.com) do so and for a wide range of reasons. As long as you stick to the rules (almost) nobody cares. However, if I should have overlooked something and anonymous posting is against the rules, I will refrain from doing so. Meanwhile, I dropped this question at the moderator an am awaiting his/her reply. *** Anonymous posts like this are the reason why many heads of the manufacturing companies don't bother to post on this site. [/unquote] Sorry, but I don’t see the relevance between many heads of the manufacturing companies not posting and me doing so anonymous. Maybe they are just to busy with managing their companies? *** To say that I would "blur the vision of potential buyers" means you do not know me at all. [/unquote] I agree, not you try to "blur the vision of potential buyers", the company in Brussels does. (Maybe even including their overseas representatives??) *** I'm not sure if you think you are outing Advanced Aerospace Designs here. They are open about the fact that they contract specialized companies to make certain parts of the Vigil. The link I posted last week are pictures of parts of the Vigil being manufactured… no conspiracy or secrets sorry to say. [/unquote] Sorry, it might be my English but a sentence like

Close, SIA* with the exception that I don’t let relevant information to disappear or let the people uninformed about… *Skydiving Information Agency

Quote: If you think the Vigil is being made in some freaky Belgian skydiver's garage, take a look at the production facilities: http://www.vigil.aero/pdf/VIGIL%20-%20Production.pdf Unquote The photos shown on this page are NOT the production facilities of the vigil. These photos are taken at a SMD manufacturer named ACE Electronics http://www.ace-electronics.be/flash.html located in Diest Belgium and one of the many subcontractors only. The manufacturer of the Vigil is B&B Controls http://www.bbctrls.be in Brussels (Approximately 50 miles more to the East). You obviously try to blur the vision of potential buyers. Considering this company to be the production facility of the Vigil would be the same as Airtec using pictures of the Dynamite Nobel facilities (cutter supplier for Cypress) and claiming that this plant is their production facility. Sorry, the Vigil is produced in a Belgian garage. In one thing you are right; it is not a skydiver’s garage. Indiana PS how sure are you that this time the French train with the Vigils in their rigs? I know for 100% that at last years World championship their rigs were equipped with a Cypress while they had a Vigil patch on their jumpsuit. http://www.ace-electronics.be/flash.html http://www.bbctrls.be

Quote I don’t take all the ‘facts’ of the people who post in this forum to serious. If you want to know anything specific, just let me know. ??? These facts are what they are FACTS! Or sofar 9 misfires. You don’t take this fact to serious? Or the fact that the manufacturer wrote in SB 1 the Vigil was safe as a misfire can only occur on the ground? ( and three weeks later there is a misfire at 3500 ft in Australia? By the way this fact seems to be on video). Yes I would like to know anything specific I don’t know yet. Indiana

Quote Virgil SB#1A from APF website - second Aus incident appears to be from static caused by static-line operations (pun on words clearly not intentional!) OK what about this quote from Vigil service bulletin 1: During the time it will take to exchange all units the Vigil can still be jumped since an electrostatic misfire can only happen on the ground. So, they only changed their mind after another misfire in Australia? (Vigil service bulletin 1A) It sounds that this constructor considers the device to be safe until proven otherwise. Not a very common approach in aviation and skydiving safety. I am therefore not so convinced that the solution is to be found with the current replacements. They are simply not aware enough (safe, not so safe, maybe safe, the next one will be safe) And it doesn’t answer the other air misfires which were no static line jumps. Great solution that bypass of the reserve loop, especially on student rigs (Vigil service bulletin 1A). You can use a Vigil. Only ensure yourself the reserve loop doesn’t go through the cutter. Indiana

And the Zhills incident I can understand since he was rumored to be around firing altitude anyway...(BTW check my profile to see where I jump). I checked your profile and will not argue with you. But the same device fired again on the ground during the repack. This was said to be due to a pinched wire. However, there is also a (very strong)rumour it was NOT a pinched wire. Enough reason to remain doubtfull. Indiana

No info about the Deland misfire. With the latest misfire in Australia (04.22.04) do we have: Ground misfires: 4 (Z.Hills 1/ Atlanta 1/ Gap 2) Air misfires: 5 ( Gap 1/ Z.Hills 1/ Deland 1/ Australia 2) Total: 9 service bulletin 1: The Vigil can still be jumped since an electrostatic misfire can only happen on the ground. (???) The number of misfires in the air is now higher than those on the ground. All misfires were during (or close to) to opening time. This scares me! The Germans have the Vigil forbidden until being replaced by others. Indiana

What is the name of the onther DZ? Indiana

I don't call them stupid. What I do know is that Sponsoring brings with you some obligations towards the sponsor (like don't criticise the product in public) Simple question how long is the product on the market and how many incidents sofar? I think time will learn... Indiana

quote Are you claiming that the hardware was the same, or that it was exactly the same (and Vigil is misinforming the public)? I mentioned earlier in the forum that the beta units and production units are one and the same (to offer these as a Beta was a marketing tool). This was for sure in Europe and now it seems also in the US (as Kim seems to confirm). The unit that fired in Gap was a standard production unit (exactly the same to answer your question). Maybe they updated the software AFTER the incident in France, I don’t know. What I do know is that there were more units in use (not many I guess, but still) and these had by my knowledge never a re-call (or did I miss a service bulletin somewhere?) Misinforming? You may call it what you like. I think that in legal terms they are right. This was the first release, they used for the first released models the term Beta and Beta means experimental. So, bringing out a statement that the unit in France was experimental is correct. It would be misinforming if they said the unit was significantly different from the other units, they did not. Indiana

Well, the reply of Ray answers most, except: Quote French team during training in GAP (¨d 2500 ft) Experimental unit, never released to public. USPA called it a beta unit, which it was, technicly speaking (beta=experimental). It was NOT a beta unit as sold by ViGIL. You are confusing 2 sources. I am not confusing two sources. The Beta units of the French team were ¡°standard¡± Beta units, not different in any way of those offered to us. Indiana

Lying is such a dirty word. The skydiver in question said he pulled at 2200ft (that 800 ft higher that the 1400 ft mentioned here right?). I have no reason to doubt him. This means that at 1100 ft his speed was still high enough to activate. I know that is what an AAD is supposed to do, but with the Deland and French story (and that their altitude was well above the activation altitude of 1100ft) it is safe to conclude that the problem will not be solved with shielding against static electricity.

Quote French team during training in GAP (± 2500 ft) This was not a production unit; it was still a Beta one. Remster Muff 914 The Beta unit IS the standard production unit. The pronunciation Beta was only used as a marketing tool. The Beta units as were delivered from May 2003 are the same as the production units delivered up to March 26.

These are the incidents so far: Mid air activation: French team during training in GAP (± 2500 ft) Skydiver in Deland (± 3000 ft) Skydiver in Z. hills (just under 2000 and not 1100 ft!) Ground activation The unit of the skydiver of the Z.hills incident fired its newly installed cutter during repack (coincidence?) 2 units in Gap misfired. (The same dropzone where was also another mid air activation). ( I agree this can be based solely upon where the majority of Vigils is in use) I think it is safe to conclude that there is a bit more going on than just a problem on the ground we do not have to worry about…

quote Thank god! Being good at 4-way has nothing to do with being able to set up automated PWB assembly lines. I think I answered this one before. I talked about decision making. If someone say it is safe to use (after several mid-air activations!!!!) I doubt seriously their knowledge or at least their awareness. Concerning safety is my motto still: better to strict than to loose. A statement safe to use it happens only on the ground is nonsense, especially after what happened in Deland! A scary statement! And yes you are right, you better keep the 4-way guys m from the assembly line And I’m not the only one with doubts. Please check also the post from Mike (Chuting Star Rigging Loft) and the Rand And Rave link: http://www.chutingstar.com/riggerrantandrave.html

Quote Furthermore first they say that the misfire in France were experimental units and now it is a Beta Unit Beta=experimental! True, however, the company itself came in August itself forward with a statement that the Vigils used by the French team were experimental and were significantly different from the ¡°normal¡± Beta that could be bought by the more experienced skydiver. Quote that the company has currently no skydivers at the production line. This decision of being save to continue to jump is made by whuffo¨ˆs You have never seen who is sewing your reserve have you? I would advise you to check out PD's production line, maybe the most respectable line in de community. Again true, and I think I quoted something wrong. I meant that the decision -makers are no-skydivers, no riggers and are in the world of parachuting new (those who had the knowledge left, trust me my sources are reliable). I doubt that at PD for the decisions concerning safety of their equipment skydivers and/or riggers are not consulted¡­

I agree fully! Vigil's service bulletin is nice but as mentioned in this forum several times is the bulletin only about the ground misfires and does it not explain the in air activation in Deland (although I also start to doubt about the one in Z. Hills) Furthermore first they say that the misfire in France were experimental units and now it is a Beta Unit (USPA) The in air activations do give me more concern than the ones on the ground and for these is there so far no explanation! I know from a confidential source (I live in Belgium) that the company has currently no skydivers at the production line. This decision of being save to continue to jump is made by whuffo’s! This is a bit to much testjumping I asked for! I might be a dummy I am not a crash test dummy. Billy