jenfly00

Perfect example for your question. I'm done with you. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Just what I was thinking. And we should blindly believe a mass-emailed story (that has since been debunked) over an eyewitness report from someone that was there, because....? I'm hoping your comments are some type of debating technique gone bad, as opposed to revealing something ...well, not pretty, about yourself. Are you really all about grabbing whatever hook you see and bending perception to fit your need. Amusing as your tactic might be, back to the subject. Are you disagreeing with the details of the original post ...or just pounding your chest and posturing? It might play in Cleveland but really!

Uhh...are you talking about events like JFTC or events like the calendar? Jan has been on JFTC, so if you have a problem with the event, you will not be agreeing with Jan. Jan's issue is with the calendar. I can understand having an issue with it. Yes, the WWR does good in promoting and encouraging women to reach beyond where they currently see themselves. Yes, the WWR is an event based on discrimination. Both statements are true. From what I read of Jan's postings, she believes women only events have a place as a vehicle for developing and raising feminist consciousness, and balances that with holding an event that is clearly based on discrimination. Historically speaking, I agree with this. Her scale tips one way in balancing the issues, mine tips the other. I suspect we disagree not in principle, but more as a matter of time frame. I try to balance that historical need with current wants and demands of women today. If we want equal opportunity and treatment, I believe we must practice it. (If not now, when?) At some point in the individual/societal growth continuum, this will be a logical and ethical necessity. Would you disagree? ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Just what I was thinking. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Sex without love is merely an empty experience ...but as empty experiences go, it's one of the best! --Woody Allen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Don't pretend you speak for all women or know what's best for 'us'. And 'no', I don't want my daughter to become a Feminazi. I don't have a penis and I'm happy about it. I don't need this pathetic cry for homogenization of genders to feel adequate. I'm sorry if you do. If you so desperately need a penis there are plenty of websites that sell strap-ons. Your problem is solved. IMHO. I think when you calm down, you'll see that I clearly wrote for no one but myself. My views are in a small but growing minority. We can be women, rejoice in the beauty of a fit, graceful body (just as men can) but to have our human value determined by painting ourselves the approved colors in the approved places at the approved times is bullshit. Teach your daughters to live as you deem is right, for that's a mother's job. I'll keep trying in small ways (such as this dialogue) to give them a better world to live their lives in. Let's not fight. I doubt we disagree that women have ...additional societal burdens to bear. I hope we can see that we merely differ in our methodologies. Peace, jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

As was stated, the analogy failed. While what happened to the Professor after he chose to not evacuate is untenable, I can't help but wonder what he was doing there in the first place. Jen, I can't help but read your response as an over reaction to a comment you didn't agree with...sorry, but if you can clarify why the analogy works, or why it was proper that the Professor stayed, please do... As for him being at a conference, I doubt that the mandatory evac order (or indeed, common sense) precluded leaving before it was done. I've left seminars before they were complete as well, with no ill effect, and not under an evacuation order. Was there government failures from bottom to top? Yes, of course. But why some people who could've left (and note his "story" picks up several days after the mandatory evac. order and hurricane, and (possibly) the levy breaks all occurred) and chose to not leave still amazes me. As stated in an earlier post, the absolute only way I'd stay in a mandatory evac. area is if my 82 y/o father refused to leave, and I had somehow broken both arms and couldn't manhandle him into the car. He gives no explanation as to why he remained; where were the others in the conference? Not usually is a conference attended by only a dozen people... Dunno...just dunno. Maybe it is about an adventure gone wrong; maybe it is a classic opportunity to study first hand human nature when society breaks down. Or maybe it's about a book...I just dunno. Ciels- Michele Wow, tons of suppositions concerning why he was there and why I wrote what I did. Let's stick to the facts (as he wrote them). He was there. Why is it so improtatnt to you to focus on why? That has been discussed to death. We've moved on to the topic of what he writes happened after. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Did you read post #19 in this thread? She clearly, cogently and openly expressed her thoughts and feelings. Whether you agree with them or not, your questions puzzle me. No offense, but it sounds like you are attempting to paint her motivations as petty whereas I read them as a result of sincerely held convictions (it's legal for women to hold such opinions, ya know ...well, in most states ) Specifically, I think the following quote by Jan would have provided information that, if read, would move your questions into the questionable realms of pedantic and rhetorical. I confess to bias as I most thoroughly agree with her. Despite the good will, hard work and best intentions of many involved, events like this continue to restrictively guide the perception of women, who we are, how we are (de) valued and what we are capable of. I've never met Jan, but in a world of women spend cumulative years of their lives shopping, painting themselves for increased value; searching for the shoes, cosmetics, clothes, surgery, diet that will aide them in their atavistic quest for superficial value, Jan is an island of sanity and hope for our future. The entire history of cosmetics, btw, is based on a woman painting herself to be more desirable to men, either as brides or (the only other historically significant option) prostitutes. I believe it's way past time to move beyond that. Ladies, wouldn't you sincerely want your daughters to live in a world where a woman's value is not so majorly influenced by her ability to attract men? Of course, YMMV. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Well ...damn, Bill. Well said! ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

All right, so why did he stay again? What was the purpose of intentionally staying in an evacuation area? Apparently, he was able to get the money to leave, so why didn't he? What on earth was the purpose for him staying? And if there were enough people to raise $25,000, why wasn't any of this done ***before the damned hurricane*** in the first place? (I mean, get together, pool cash, get the fuck out of the time bomb...) Sigh.....just my thoughts. Take it, leave it, whatever. Ciels- Michele What do any of your questions/statements have to do with what he states happened??? She was raped?! Well, what was she doing walking down the street without a bra??? ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

I wish I could have been a skydiver back in the days before it became all about money. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

People have opinions. They express them. Even if I don't like their opinion, I'm damn glad they are enjoying life ...or is that a one way judgment? I mean, hypothetically speaking, you could spend the weekend playing the skin flute. No judgment here. However, you really should not react in a testy

Spot on! ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

no, no. When they say stuff like that over and over again, they only 'want' people to 'infer' that we directly targetted innocents. It gets their intent across while still keeping their personal honesty intact. Dude. Dead is dead. Do you think it would matter to those killed? I know a woman who is convinced that any military is directly tasked with the sole responsibility to kill children. Target and kill children is the only role and she's convinced there is no other purpose than that. She goes to tears anytime she sees a uniform and is convinced every serviceman serves and is eager to strangle babies. I don't doubt that off the cuff emotional manipulation and blanket comments like that is a big part of it. That and she's a nutjob too. So what's the point? None, she's just a very extreme case and fun to point out once in a while. You are deliberately targeting this tortured individual for your amusment and to make a point on the internet?? jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Let's see, she made no threat, but expressed an opinion ...makes you proud to be an American, don't it? ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Who said that? Derek I also believe, that to an extent, many of them are. If they were just too lazy to figure out something to help themselves, then yes. I do however understand that not *EVERYONE* was just being lazy, I understand that some people just could not get out, and our gov't did fail them. If they could get out and just wanted to wait for the gov't to help them like they always do, screw them. Their own fault. Hundreds of thousands of American citizens are in desperate circumstances. These people are our brothers and sisters ...and you want to stand to the side and assign blame???? I don't know about you, but I kind of miss the days when people would just shout "Fuck all them niggers" At least that sentiment was pure and untarnished by pseudo logic. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

I don't remember saying the local government was without blame. Could you be so kind as to link to that particular post of mine? Unless, of course, you are just putting words in my mouth. I've not seen you make any mention of the city or state governments in this thread....the only people you've been blaming is fedgov.... Dude, This is not about blame. This is about hundreds of thousands of American citizens in desperate need. These people are our brothers and sisters and deserved an immediate and massive response. It's the right thing to do. It's the American thing to do. It's the human thing to do. Our govt did not do it. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

I've yet to meet a single person that has had their rights trampled on in any way (and I've met quite a few people in my life).. I was once told by a fine, upstanding young man, that he didn't believe any mass murders took place in Germany during WWII ...that it was all contrived by the Jews for political reasons. I feel the same incredulity now as I felt then. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Under these circumstances I dont think I would have been without supplies before the storm and been left out to dry. If I had live in New Orleans I would have been gone. yeah, and if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass every time he jumped. So, absent wings, would you allow your family to suffer???? ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Because it is wrong and against the law which they represent and are supposed to enforece. You obviously have no idea who I am or how I think. These people were not taking food and water. They were shopping for things like shoes and clothes. I don't think you are someone who would allow your family to suffer from starvation or dehydration. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Hmmm, my view is that for decades we have stood for fairness and freedom. This has changed. You (generalized you) tribal types were pretty much socially shunned when you went around applying war paint, beating the ground with your clubs and screaming at the sky in impotent rage. When you crossed the line, we (generalized we) arrested you and either mandated treatment or imprisonment. Now we have left the cage door open and (temporarily, I hope) the unibrows have the room to restrict the lives of others and actually get a bit of admiration by wrapping yourselves in tribal flags when you leap around the night fire and scream war. Personally, I don't give a rat's turd what we do in Iraq. It's what we are allowing the primitive types to do to the rest of US that greatly concern me. YMMV jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

It's a penis thing. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

You know what, given the circumstances, the lack or power, water, food, clean clothing ....why not. Not being able to buy food and water, how many of us would just take it? I would and I think you would too. Now the electronics and pretty things, no, I don't believe I would. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

The Flood Control Act of 1936 was passed after the flood that devastated Pittsburg. Empowered by that act, the Army Corp of Engineers has officially had the responsibility and authority for flood control nation wide. http://www.usace.army.mil/public.html#Flood ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

I'm glad you're glad. At the same time, I don't disagree with Amanduh's post. What she has brought up is indeed part of the reality of the situation, and I don't think she deserves the ration of shit thrown her way. You're right, of course (about my reaction, not necessarily about what the reality of the situation is). While it surely seemed that I was attacking Amanduh ( I would have read it as such), my reaction was to the situation. Childhood memories of neighbors walking around our neighborhood with guns, aggressively challenging (sometimes with guns drawn) any remotely Latin looking individual in our mixed residential/small businesses neighborhood. People sharing news of shootouts with police, a woman raped in her home (we weren't sure exactly who it was or whether she was still alive), children beaten and robbed. Reports were on the nightly news. Interviews with eye witnesses confirmed the stories. The worst was the fact that the boat people were stealing babies because refugees with young children got preferential treatment. As events escalated, the conflicts grew in number and intensity. As a reaction, police were on full alert with conspicuous displays of firepower. Same for the National Guard. Innocent people were forced to the ground at gunpoint. I was eight years old and I lived in terror that I would be beaten and robbed by these people. Problem was, aside from few, isolated incidents born of frustration, anger and poor communication, nothing much actually happened. The unfounded panic of a community turned good, rational people into fearful (and vengeful) beasts. Some resentments, cemented in those days of hatred and fear, remain in some form 25 years later. Peace and healing, jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".