MikePelkey

______________________________________________ By the way mike I want to base a PC-10 but over water ______________________________________________ I am not familiar with a PC-10. If you're talking about base jumping a T-10 please don't do it on anything lower than a terminal jump with a reserve. I wish I hadn't started this post. In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

_______________________________________________ you can't make sweeping statements like that based on your own anecdotal or subjective experience as a relatively low-experienced jumper. Show us some numbers to back it up! _______________________________________________ Note that I said I truly believe that we had fewer broken bones in those days. It was strictly my opinion based on cursory personal observation. Whose opinion am I permitted to give? In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

_____________________________________________ No, but you did have problems with bent pins (death), with ripcord housings getting plugged up with mud (or pea-gravel) creating impossible pull forces, kinked ripcord housings, blast handles, etc. I know of one jumper who went in who's father was able to pick up the front-mounted reserve and swing it around in a circle BY THE RIPCORD HANDLE. No one would have been able to pull that. _______________________________________________ Good point. I never saw any of the problems you describe, but certainly can't argue the validity of any of them. I do recall having at least one extremely hard pull with borrowed gear. Adding to your list, I once had a problem with a ripcord housing keeper that tore loose when I picked up my rig by the ripcord housing on the way to the plane. I had a real surprise when I went to pull and found that the entire housing extended all the way to my hand. I was lucky to be able to grab the ball on the end of the cable with my other hand and get it open without a reserve ride. In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

Thanks Dave, You're certainly right about rounds in that respect. We didn't ride to earth in flying machines in those days. We also didn't know much about the insane winds around the face of the Cap. We had to find out about them the hard way. We did however have "belly flying" experience though. I doubt that anyone could make that jump if they didn't know how to track. Brian and I had done a lot of RW together before that jump, and we had a lot of tracking experience before we met one another. I was rather hoping that my post wouldn't turn into something that looked like I had anything against the wonderful advances that have been made in parachuting. That was not my intention. Your point and others about getting the pilot chute out into clean air makes all the sense in the world to me. I recall having developed the habit of initiating a barrel roll after every pull to be sure the PC got a good stream of air. Hesitations were not uncommon in those days, and would admittedly be very serious in low altitude base jumps. What I probably should have said was that I wish there was a less precarious way of dealing with the PC/bridle link than what is currently in use. I hope it didn't sound like I was in criticism of the benefit of being able to fly your wing to the place of your choice. I love the ram air technology. My point was that the older parachutes were simpler, easier to pack and opened at least as well and as safely as the modern equipment. Line overs, or what we called Mae Wests, were extremely rare in my day. By the way, what I saw regarding PLF's made me think that they went the way of pencil and paper or slide rules when calculators appeared. No one knows how to extract a root long hand these days, including myself. I did see an instance of a very experienced guy clobbering in with a low hook turn on Fox News a few months ago. He was described as a trained, experienced and current professional exhibition jumper. Obviously the power of the new technology can be a danger to the experienced jumper as well as the uninitiated at times. Again my post was intended to defend what was good about the old technology of my day. Many people shrieked in horror at the thought of our El Cap jump with round skydiving parachutes. I just wanted to point out why they weren't all that bad. Make no mistake about it - Seeing the advances in today's parachuting was like stepping into the future for me. I am in absolute awe of the ram air technology. In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

I left out one salient point: 7. To my knowledge our old ripcord actuated PC arrangement never caused a problem due to having the bridle cord improperly routed under a leg strap or lodged under a corner of the rig. An improperly routed bridle under the above conditions is obviously a death sentence in a single canopy base jump. In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

_______________________________________________ Did you commonly use that method to stow the lines for deployment? _______________________________________________ The lines were stowed in the container in the same manner that they are currently stowed in the tailpocket of a base rig. The wording "daisychain" was probably incorrect and misleading. Sorry about that. In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

______________________________________________ You seem to be comparing old skydiving gear to modern base gear. ______________________________________________ Actually it is apples to oranges whether you are comparing BASE or skydiving gear. In my opinion there would be little difference in "time to open" of modern base rigs if you were to remove the sleeve for "slider down/off" jumps and include it for the equivalent of "slider up". I forgot to mention that the lines were daisychained and stowed in the container. I doubt that there would be any major timing difference in the way the respective rigs would unstow the lines. Not to suggest that it would make any difference, but it would be interesting to me to see a one-on-one comparison of opening times for the old and new technologies side by side, done with a typical base rig packed slider down and an old TU-7 sans sleeve. I think the opening time and distances would probably be fairly comparable. By the way, our 24' reserves were unmodified (no steering capability other than risers) and always packed without any pilot chute. They were intended in my day to be for survival rather than comfort. I have opened a reserve once at near terminal. The opening shock was certainly substantial but not bone-shattering. Once again I am NOT advocating returning to the past. The intention of my original post was to try to dispel some of the common negative thoughts and comments I have heard regarding the safety of the old parachute technology of the 60's compared to today's technology. I think the old and new technologies each have their unique pluses and minuses with respect to one another, especially in the area of safety. In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

_______________________________________________ I found it quite amazing how many people speak English over seas and how willing they are to speak a language not of their own origin. _______________________________________________ Everywhere but France, of course In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

I hear a lot of negatives about the old gear we used in the 60's. I'd like to clarify a few things: 1. Pilot chutes were spring-loaded and packed inside the container along with the bridle cord. One did not have to learn proper execution of PC deployment. There was no wrong way to do it. The PC blasted out away from the jumper at a consistent amount of force upon opening. If anyone ever had a bridle wrapped around their arm or leg in those days, regardless of body position on opening, I never heard about it. 2. There was no such thing as lost steering lines. It was not possible with the simple arrangement of the old round technology's contained and guided steering line construction regardless of whether it was a modified military parachute or the slightly more complex Paracommander. 3. Contrary to common present-day belief, the rounds let you down nice and easy. I landed standing up at least 80% of the time. We knew how to do a PLF in my time, and it always sufficed for the other 20% of my landings. I noticed an incredibly high percentage of jumpers breaking their fall with their hands at BD '05. No one ever did that in my day. 4. Present day parachutes are much more complex to pack than our old rounds were. There were 28 symmetrical connections from the risers to each individual panel of the canopy. Line checks were very simple: follow lines 1 and 14 in one hand and 15 and 28 in the other down to the inside connections to the risers. If there were no lines crossed all the other lines were routed correctly. 5. A very simple sleeve took the place of the slider to provide comfortable openings. The apex of the sleeve attached to the other end of the bridle and a second bridle cord attached the apex of the canopy to the the sleeve. The job of the PC was to pull the sleeve off the canopy so deployment would always begin at the skirt and progess from bottom to top. Openings were always reasonably gentle whether the jump was a "hop and pop" or at terminal. 6. What makes the present-day parachutes so great also tends to make them dangerous. Canopy control mostly consisted of knowing which way the wind was blowing on landing and how to get there. I have been criticized for overstating a forward speed of 15mph for the old TU-7 modded canopy, but that was the approximate wind speed you could land them vertically in for me. In any wind greater than 15mph you expected to have a little ground speed on landing facing the wind, or a whole lot of course if you dared to run with the wind on landing. Landing running with the wind was not commonly practiced in those days by most non-suicidal jumpers. I have a real hard time with the replacement of the internally packed, spring-loaded pilot chute and ripcord in favor of the stowed or hand-held PC. I'm sure there was a good reason it evolved in that direction but it escapes me. I would dearly love to have someone point out where my thinking is flawed in this regard. Please don't interpret this post as a dumb "give me the good old days" plea. In a way, I'm comparing the old Model T to a Porche. I am not in any way suggesting that parachuting should retrogress in that direction at all. The concept of the rigid wing parachute is an incredible advance to the state of the art of parachuting in my opinion. My only purpose in this post is to enlighten the uninitiated to what was better and safer about the old round technology. I truly believe we broke fewer bones back in my days. In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

The memorial was a tribute to a wonderful guy who made a lot of friends through his years. Everyone who had the pleasure of knowing Brian will miss his warm, caring personality. I was blessed to be his friend. He was good to the bone. What Nick should have said was that I hate speaking publicly after him. He is a terribly difficult act to follow. My thanks to his wonderful family, his cop friends, fireman friends, motorcycle friends, fishing friends and to his myriad friends who didn't fit in any of those categories. To the base jumper friends: Collin, Jamie from San Francisco, Clark and Mindie from Pennsylvania, Marah from New York, Johnny from Chicago, and Nick and Julia from La Crescenta California, my family who adored Brian to pieces- my wife Toni, daughter Jacqui and son Brian. It is an honor and privilege to have got to know his wonderful family as well: Kurt and Tina, Chris, Cyndi and the boys, Hunter and Harrison, and Michelle and Danielle. We love you all. As Nick so eloquently put it, Brian sure left this world a much better place than he found it. After the reception we all went to Tina and Kurt's house. I met a young lady there who told me an amazing story about Brian that I hadn't heard before. I will share it. When Brian was a patrol car cop, he was dispatched to the young lady's house. It turned out that she had been in an abusive relationship and when her guy left her, he kidnapped her little boy and took him away to Mexico. Brian promised her that he would not let him get away with that. He rented a van, donned a wig and glasses, and headed down to Mexico to get the boy away from his abductor for her. After Brian brought the boy home, he picked him up every morning and took him to school in his squad car and waited for him each night after school to take him home. That is the kind of guy my dear old buddy Brian was. Its no wonder to me that he left so many people behind who loved him so much. In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

_______________________________________________ Can anyone with any real insight explain why it is an impediment to know how to skydive and then try base jumping? _______________________________________________ In my humble opinion having as long as 2 1/2 minutes to clear line twists or any other malfunctions without having to worry about bumping into objects would become ingrained recovery procedure or habit to a skydiver over time. In that respect alone skydiving skills would have to be considered an impediment rather than a carryover skill. In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

_____________________________________________ Brian failed to react due to his lack of experience. _____________________________________________ I know that everyone who is taking this position is positively aware that all the square canopy experience in the world wouldn't have saved Brian's life. All he had to do is to count off three seconds and pitch. I would be embarassed to appear to be so simple-minded that I thought executing this sequence would require extensive training and experience under canopy. Brian was my dear friend and I would love to find someone or something to blame, but he was a big boy and 100% responsible for his own death. . In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

_____________________________________________ Not to put too fine a point on it, but Brian's death is not the appropriate occasion for the disgruntled to have their petty revenge against those they believe to have slighted them. _____________________________________________ I love you Rhonda. Thanks for being you. . In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

Thanks Chris, I guess I have done exactly that a few times over the past 40 years and you are absolutely right. We did get away with a lot of shit. Brian's family has assured me that he was never happier than he has been over the past few years since we reunited and that he was very excited about jumping together at Bridge Day in celebration of our El Cap jump. What happened to him should never have happened to anyone who could count to three. I will never understand. -Mike In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

Brian Schubert was the closest friend I ever had. We worked together, jumped together and partied together when we were young way back in the sixties. He was the best man at my wedding 39 years ago and my wife and I named our son after him. For those among you who didn't know him, Brian was a card-carrying people person, full of life, love and generosity to a fault. We who were close to him will miss him terribly. His many friends, children and grandchildren will be devastated by his absence in their lives. Goodbye old buddy. We love you. . In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

Actually this was the first newspaper article I have seen that didn't rake Brian and me through the coals. That was the only thing I liked about it. I'm assuming the reporter is a schizo. His point is completely lost on me. Why would he jump if he thinks it is something only a bunch of idiots would do? . In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

Calvin, I hate to tell you this but you could probably use a spell checker yourself. . In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

>>Would I be wrong to speculate that one person ratted out the other two?

Yuri, Are you sure about this? I would think it should be the opposite. The equator is neutral and the poles are at the north and south extreme reaches of the planet. The coriolis effect should gradually come to a halt as you reach the equator and reverse as you pass it. Am I missing something? -Mike In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

Happy Birthday Joy. How many candles on your cake? In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny

Thanks Kurt, The pleasure was mine. I'm not sure I'm ready for a "B" just yet. Although I think its a reasonable assumption that I have been a BASE jumper longer than anyone else on the planet, I still have only two BASE jumps under my belt, and only a single jump of any kind on a square. To date I have made a BASE jump only once every 40 years. I may be getting a little rusty between jumps. I am looking forward to Bridge Day this year though. Jumping a tall bridge during the daylight hours is challenge enough for me for now. I wish I had been better prepared to accompany you guys the other night though, just as a casual observer. Next time I will be sure to plan it a little better. Thanks again, Mike In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny