Cloudi

Oh, you were serious? Just kiddin'!!! Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

Huh? Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

I'm so proud of our Engineering Dept. and test jumpers for not compromising and for making this happen!! They are simply the best! These larger sizes are going to be a beautiful thing for experienced canopy pilots who don't want to downsize, but want a more high performance wing than they are currently jumping. Putting a limit on minimum jump #'s is something I personally try to avoid. There are people with a lot of jumps who simply suck at canopy control and then there are people who have relatively few jumps who are excellent canopy pilots. I strongly feel there is a lot to be said for the experience someone can only gain by making the jumps, though. Always best to get that experience, make the mistakes, and learn as much as possible on novice and intermediate canopies, IMHO.

...you have to convince the demo queen first... That's reassuring. Why does it almost sound as if the word "yet" should be inserted at the end of each of those sentences? Uh-oh...I think I'm getting jaded... Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

Exactly. Dealers do so much more than sell gear. They have educated themselves on each component. They offer advice (priceless, yet often ignored). They loan equipment to help jumpers decide what works best for them, often with no guarantee of a sale. They arrange gear demos (most, at no extra cost). They sponsor events. I know for a fact the original poster, for example, spends money every year to provide reserve demos to her local dropzone for Safety Day. She may get some sales from it, but there is much more to it than that. She does it so people are more educated about the canopy they rarely, if ever, have to fly. This builds a jumper's confidence in their gear. That kind of thing goes way above and beyond the role of just a "dealer." There are several other dealers who make similar arrangements for their dropzone. There may be some dealers who are all about the money, but, fortunately, they are rare and most of the ones I have met are more concerned with educating their customers so they make the right choice for themselves. "Cut out the middle man" and you will be losing a very important and valuable resource who can provide un-biased advice (most dealers represent several manufacturers), not to mention great service when things aren't as you expected. Information, education, experience, and sincere concern for your well-being come along with that tiny profit the dealer makes from selling gear to you. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

*Reply not aimed at anyone in particular, just at the example expressed in dragon2's post* I will never understand why people keep jumping a canopy that they and/or everyone else considers "hard opening" or otherwise defective. It baffles me. It's not how modern canopies are designed. My money is hard earned and I simply wouldn't tolerate it. Here's a thought: contact the manufacturer and have the problem straightened out. From my observations, working for a manufacturer and being surrounded by others, 9 out of 10, the problem is not with the gear. It is most often packing error, body position, freefall speed, gear compatibility, a total misunderstanding of the product's characteristics, the alignment of the moon and the earth (just kidding), and so on. When you do contact the manufacturer, take their suggestions/advice seriously. Test it all out. If it still does not improve the situation, contact them again and send it back for professional evaluation! In the cases where there is a problem canopy, the company I work for is always willing to do everything in their power to correct the issue (as are many, I hope). Whether it be helping their customer find the solution within themselves (very difficult to consider YOU can be the problem, I know--from experience), correcting the existing canopy, making a new one, or suggesting another canopy more suitable for the indivdual, they will go waaaayyyy out of their way to make the customer happy with their purchase (new or used). I'll never understand why people sit around and bitch about a product, but won't take the 10 minutes to discuss it with the manufacturer. Do they expect their friends and fellow jumpers to make it all better?? I cannot stress this enough: If you are not happy with your canopy (rig, helmet, alti, car, television, computer, lawn service, toilet paper, etc.), please don't sit around and bitch about it. Contact the manufacturer (or dealer) and let them make it better!!! If the manufacturer doesn't make any effort to assist you, THEN raise hell and bitch about it. End of rant. Please continue with your regularly scheduled thread...

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1628 View this and then ask that question if you still think it really matters.

Do you pack for yourself or do you have packers do it? One advantage to packing for yourself is that when the opening doesn't go as expected, you can recall what happened during the pack-job and start deducting from there what really happened to make this one different. I have no comment on the bridle tear. Sounds like your riggers will have to explain the causes for that one. As I get more experience, I start to see where my own actions/reactions explain many of the unexpected things that happen during openings. For example: I've been making a concentrated effort lately to not look at my openings until the canopy begins flying forward. It's a bad habit I've developed because the Spectre openings are just so darned pretty.

I feel really left out. I'm definitely somewhere in the Freaks/Special Ed category, but my love of small, informal RW and a couple more jump #'s keep me out of both groups. Maybe I'm the slow-blossoming Jocks/Rocker Chick/Stoner medley? Woe-is-me, but maybe someday I will belong... Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

By all means, do what works best for you and gives you the most consistent openings. Being a Spectre jumper myself, who curses her way through every pack job (because I loath it and only $ prevents me from having other people do it), I know that you can pretty much do anything to the pack job and it will still come out soft and on heading. It's just a super forgiving canopy. I would just hate to see you switch to another canopy later on that isn't quite as forgiving and see that your current packing method causes more chaos than it is intended to prevent. From my understanding, the nose roll is an "old school" way of preventing hard openings on a notoriously hard opening canopy (not brand or reputation, but in reality--each canopy has its own personality). It's probably still a valid solution to the occasional "problem child" canopy, but I suspect there are often other factors that contribute more directly to canopies that occasionally give you a whacker. I think canopy designers have managed to slow openings so much that a standard pro pack (or whatever method works for each person and their respective canopy), without any extra hocus-pocus, usually gets the job done with pleasant results. Packing is a mystery to me. I can be ever-so-meticulous and make sure every flake, s-fold, and line stow is picture perfect and still get a funky opening. Then, I can turn around and slop it into the bag with lines sticking out everywhere and get a text-book "perfect" opening. Go figure. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

Sorry for the thread drift, but this is contradictory. You roll the nose to slow the openings, not speed them up. It's also an unnecessary step on most modern parachute designs, as far as I know. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

Weirdos. Why don't you go fly down a mountain or something. It will free up space in the plane for the rest of us. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

Canopy courses are the best money you can spend in skydiving (other than gear, of course) once you're cleared to solo, IMO. Scott Miller is an excellent teacher who has a knack for explaining even the most complicated concepts in such a way that is easy to grasp and continue to learn from long after the course. I have no doubt Brian's course is well worth the time and money too. I'm sorry to hear you didn't get a good vibe at DeLand. Maybe you were too focused on the course, the teams, and the tandems to notice there are a bunch of really great people who actually fun jump there? I've jumped there for going on 5 years and my "vibe" is still good. When you come back, leave some time to hang out a little and meet some of the fun people there!

Hi Thomas! I can't remember what time you came by to pick up the demo canopy, but I do recall it being very late in the afternoon (4pm-ish?) and you were standing in shipping, which only allows you to see part of the factory. From there, you can't see the laser tables and cut part inspection areas, which run for two shifts, unlike the production floor. As Kolla mentioned, the production staff arrives early in the morning and leaves at 3:30 pm SHARP. If you don't believe me, come rolling into the parking lot at 3:29, have a seat at the picnic table, and watch the mad dash. Maybe you are upset because you weren't able to pick up the canopy at that time? Come to think of it, you said you were going to call me the next day or the day after with the information I needed so that I could ship it to you, but I never heard from you. I would still like to provide the demo if you're still interested.

My guess is that it's because some people still like to flat pack. The only time I even notice them is when I'm closing the bag and one is sticking out in the way. While annoying, it isn't enough to "send me over the edge." They do seem to be quite handy for riggers in the inspection process and when attaching the lines to risers, so maybe there's more to them than packing preference? Dunno, but I'll ask.

Hi Shlomo!

Absolutely! I'm not trying to "blame" the method, so much as I am trying to explain that numbers don't mean squat when you're trying to fit a xxx cu. in. canopy into a xxx cu. in pack tray and it doesn't fit. Numbers don't make it fit just because someone said it "should" because of information they got from a pack volume chart. You obviously know more about all this than I do from experience. I'm pointing out what I know from other experienced individuals who design and make the canopies. They are or were riggers themselves. If I've been misled in my understanding of the futility of measuring pack volume for overall use, I'll happily grovel at your feet and bow to your wisdom.

Sorry, I thought that would answer your question. There is no particular "schedule" that I know of to determine what canopy will be assembled where, other than maybe what canopy it is or what the turn around time is. Every order is put into que once it is received and "computer voodoo" ensues. I'm quite sure there's a lot more to it than that, but I'm not a production manager. I just try to stay out of their way (but I do ask a lot of questions). I didn't mean to come across as "defensive." Just trying to provide some information to those who may be leary of canopies manufactured outside of the USA while trying to answer your question at the same time. Some people are very "uninformed" (nice way of saying ignorant) when it comes to that kind of thing. If it is something important to you, I would suggest that you call PD (+1-386-738-2224) and explain what you are trying to find out, so you can be directed to someone at the factory who can possibly answer your question. I mean, that's what I would do if I had a question for a manufacturer that wasn't explained in the owner's manual or on their website...[shrug] I don't think anyone who has the knowledge to answer your question would be intimidated, only the one's who have no useful information to offer. Just trying to save you the time of picking through BS. You're welcome. So, you're going to mingle in the sky with us "fancy" plane jumpers, huh? Cool! Altitude is fun, too!

Perfect! Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

I'm sure you already know this, but for the information of others: This is mostly because PD hasn't wasted their time trying to measure something that no one can agree on with a consistent, reliable method of measuring. The same person can use the same technique 3 times in a row on the same day in the same environment and end up with 3 different results. Current methods (PIA proposed or otherwise) are not consistent, so why bother? PD provides canopies to container manufacturers for sizing instead. It is up to that manufacturer to realize a variance for line types, environment (humidity or lack thereof), packing technique, and canopy age/condition (older/more used = slightly easier packing). That's why the best source for learning what canopy will fit into what container is still the rig manufacturer, not a chart that someone (although well intended, I'm sure) put together. Stepping off soapbox now... Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

My understanding is that certain PD canopies are made only in DeLand due to their complexity or because of military regulations. As for the ones made in DeLand only due to their complexity, it's mostly a matter of spending the time and money to train our sister factory in Honduras when these designs aren't in the largest part of the market anyway (Velocities, Lightnings, Vengeance). Swooping is big, but there are far less people qualified to have a Velo than there are people who want them... Where each canopy is made (other than the above mentioned) depends on the necessary turn around time for their production. Most people take their reserve from stock and don't order custom, hence the turn around time needed is less, so many of them are assembled in Honduras. Where something is made is much less important than HOW. The same strict attention to detail can be found at both factories. For those who fear "third world" labor: the material quality control, cutting, and final inspections are all done in DeLand, while Honduras does the assembly for those canopies manufactured there. Not that it matters, though. The Honduras factory is top notch with a great group of dedicated employees who know how important it is to do it right. I've never bothered to look where my main or reserve were manufactured (purchased long before my employment at PD) because I know the design, process, attention to detail, and strict tolerances are the same whether fully cut, assembled, and inspected from DeLand or Honduras. To the original poster Flying_Penguin, you might find more information on this topic here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1950700;search_string=PD%20Reserve%20Made%20in%20Honduras;#1950700. Be warned, though: global ignorance abound in that thread... Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

Congratulations and welcome back!

Excellent! So, what you're saying is: you're even MORE spoiled than me? Congratulations!! FYI: I wasn't trying to say that Spectre's are the sweetest opening canopies ever, just that "in my experience" my Spectre openings have been sweet (except when I do something completely stupid that not even my kind-hearted Spectre can ignore). Sheesh! In an unrelated topic: Why is that in the rest of the world "mine is bigger than yours" is good and in skydiving, it's not? We are some assbackwards peeps! Ok, carry on. I apologize for thinking out loud... Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

Sorry for the delay in responding...just saw this. I agree there should probably be more involved with doing a tandem than paying some money, signing a form, watching a video, & getting geared up. I think if it were made to be a little more "serious" with more time spent on the pre-jump, some would take it more seriously and not look at it like a "ride."' Against statistics, I took it seriously, was instantly hooked, and became a skydiver (out of nowhere!). I went for a tandem, thinking it would be a once-in-a-lifetime thing, but then went and did another and next thing I knew I was doing the 6 hour ground course to start AFF!

In the spirit of your original post... I once ended up with a concussion playing Frisbee. I couldn't remember who was president when I went to the hospital! There's no reserve in Frisbee. Skydiving is safer, in my experience. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.