Chris-Ottawa

I just find it hard to believe that the people I'm getting advice from are not current or current on canopy piloting or safety. The instructors have demo(Pro) ratings and regularly do demo's in "tight" spaces, and I mean tight. The DZO is also an accuracy champ, there are a few base jumpers, swoopers and freeflyers. The instructors almost all have over 2k jumps and are very current. They are all open and willing to share ideas, I never get brushed off when I have questions. I can't see them putting me under something that they don't find safe. I agree all this means nothing as far as their outlook on safety, but I highly doubt that they want the publicity of and injury/death on their hands. From previous threads where this same issue came up and I talked to my instructors asking them flat out "Do you think a 135 is a bit agressive?). They say yes, but based on your landings up to this point you'll be fine. So I took that as I was doing well, and they are comfortable that my skill will be sufficient to run this agressive canopy. If I hadn't landed every landing standing up or landed on target on nearly every landing up to now, it might be a different story. I'm going to present it to them again and try and pry a little more to see what they might say. "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey, Yes I remember you PMing me. That spawned from another post of mine that turned into this same thing. This thread has given me alot of good advice and things to consider though. It's nice to have real world experience as well, so thanks for that. You're basically in my boat exactly as for size and whatnot, and you've had the oppurtunity to experience what I'm going through. My biggest issue is who to believe and trust. I have 100% trust in my peers and instructors, and no one seems terribly concerned about me on a 135. I mean I have gotten a few sessions about being cautious, take it easy, don't turn low, try this up high etc. But then I come on here and get the complete opposite saying that "there's no way anyone with under 50 jumps should be on a 135 no matter what w/l". Its really confusing, I could see if my instructors didn't recommend me jumping it, but said it should be alright, and I came here and everyone had the same feeling, but it's 2 completely different worlds. Thanks CHris "When once you have tasted flight..."

Ok, that's pretty much what I was looking for, that they are fairly conservative in that respect. I do realize that smaller canopies will be affected more but it just struck me as odd that they would be affected that much more. 135 - 15 lbs from Novice to Expert 150 - 60 lbs from novice to expert Nonetheless, cool! "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hello Lisa, I have a question that you may be able to help with. It has to do with wingloading, but looking at the Spectre loading chart, 115 lbs is novice, 128 is intermediate and 135 is advance. Does 15 lbs really make the difference between novice and expert? And more interestingly, does 7 lbs make the difference between intermediate and expert. It seems like such a smal margin. The reason I'm asking is not at all to justify my canopy choice, or to doubt PD, but it seems odd that such a small amount can make a canopy go from student to expert in 15 lbs. I mean during my training, my PFF instructors asked me to wear weight. I wore 22 lbs and if I was on a novice canopy (which I was), that could have potentially made a very bad day. My situation doesn't really relate as I was on a 288 at the time, but If I was working on my RW endorsement for my A, I would haev probably been wearing that weight to keep up a speed for my instructors. ANd then I would have been on a 150 which would put me in the advanced range. I mean just looking at the 150, it's 15lbs between EACH stage, not 15 from novice to expert. Thanks EDIT: I guess my question doesn't truly matter, and I'd be best to ask PD, but I'm just curious. Going from 1.04 to 1.11 is the difference from Novice to Expert. Seems pretty low... "When once you have tasted flight..."

I appreciate that...constructive criticism without flaming me. Thank you. I agree I don't have alot of landings but I do understand alot about flight. I have been flying for many years and have been interested in flight since i was 10. I put 350 hours in a Cessna 337 last summer alone. I am not saying that I'll be fine under this canopy due to this, but it will help in some respect. And I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'll be ok under this canopy, in the end it's my problem and I'm definately concerned as previously stated. As far as not making it look good on myself, my first few posts explained that everyone had me concerned about this more than I had considered. I got upset when people were flaming me over and over and over again, and all I was doing was replying to the same post over each time. People were saying stuff that made no sense just for the sake of argument. At no point did I say I know more than proswooper or Ian, as I know they have a damn good idea of what they're talking about. Thanks again! Chris "When once you have tasted flight..."

I saw the reply was to Ian, but Ian mentioned nothing of his body position or a cutaway so I could only imagine you were digging at me. My apologies. "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hmmm, let me go back and read the last 7 posts that are talking directly about my tension knot chop from 2 weeks ago...Ah geeze yeah, turns out I did, phew, you caught me off guard there....Wow, you're good! Here's what I said a few posts ago (since obviously you didn't bother to read it): "I agree, I just watched my video over and over and I may have not have been symmetrical. I'm stable at deployment, and pretty symmetrical, but when I dumped, at linestretch I was leaning towards the left. You can see it just after linestretch. But, this would go against the theory of the lines being slack because the tenson knot was on the left side." And based on that, I was admitting that I'm not perfect. Im sorry Mr. Swooper, but before you make a comment to make me look stupid, read the previous posts. This is exactly what I mean about picking through my posts to flame me. Good work proving that you're not listening to what I have been saying. Now, Is it necessary to be a jerk with your little "Mr Body Position" comment? I can be a jerk too when I reply to your smart ass comments! Enjoy! "When once you have tasted flight..."

Well up to now it's all been borrowed gear, minus the last 2 jumps. I did notice that I am at the Advanced portion on that chart. Hence why I'm seriously reconsidering the canopy. I agree that I "can" jump other gear, but I feel like a mooch always borrowing gear. I hate that. When I had my malfunction, I was going to risk landing it because I didn't want to chop someone else's gear, it bothered me that much. I honestly talked myself through the landing and said that I'd probably break both legs at the very least, but that's how bad I didn't want to chop the canopy. Common sense kicked in and it got chopped. I made the right choice. I know that all that my instructors are nothing but top rate. I don't think they made me make a bad decision. I think the logical thing to do would be to jump a 150 for a bunch of jumps. Until I'm better prepared for the 135. At this point I just don't know. "When once you have tasted flight..."

That's whay my rigger said. He said sometimes it just happens and you can't do anything about it. I wasn't saying that you were implying that I messed up, I was saying that it is very possible I had contributed to the mess. I've since given up on it and let it go. "When once you have tasted flight..."

I agree, I just watched my video over and over and I may have not have been symmetrical. I'm stable at deployment, and pretty symmetrical, but when I dumped at linestretch I was leaning towards the left. You can see it just after linestretch. But, this would go against the theory of the lines being slack because the tenson knot was on the left side. Either way, I don't doubt that my body position or packing contributed to the mal, it may have actually caused it. I'll never really know 100% what it was, but this is reassurance of how important your body position becomes at deployment time. It really drove me crazy that I wasn't able to know exactly what caused it. On a side note, You guys and your comments/concerns have really got me thinking. I wasn't fearing the canopy on the previous 2 jumps, but it was pretty windy so the ground rush was fairly minimal. It was definately a big leap in speed going from a 150 to the 135, much more than any other downsize up to this point. I didn't feel uncomfortable landing the canopy and it landed great, but again, high winds. I'm thinking alot about landing it again in lesser winds. I obviously don't want to become a statistic, and hope never to become one. I'm just not sure what I can do. Before I jump again, I'm going to talk to my instructor/rigger and see what I should do. Again, thanks for the info/advice! "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey Jonah, What's up with a pd 143? I've heard nothing but good about them and it got me to the ground safely. First time flying a 7 cell, and first time on an F111. I landed, touched my ass then the final bit of the flare stood me up again. It was a great landing and a great canopy. As far as line twists go, I'm sure they can be promoted by bad body position, but I'm confident that I'm pretty stable on deployment. I could be wrong as I only have one video of my third to last jump, which was the jump I had my reserve ride on. Feel free to comment on it. If you go to skydivingmovies.com do a search for backflips. It comes up as the first one called backflips-frontflips-etc... It's not a really close shot, but it looks pretty stable to me. "When once you have tasted flight..."

THANK YOU!!! Need I say more? "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey Skybytch, I agree 30 jumps is novice. My weight is 115, exit weight about 135-ish. I have read all those articles a while back, including Brian's book. I have seen this chart before as well. And like I said in many posts in this thread alone, I have taken the advice given to me into account, I can't get out to my DZ until Saturday.... I would love to take a full Canopy control course, but where I am, it's just not available. I can't just stop by Eloy or Deland for the afternoon for a quick course. There are alot of variables that not everyone is considering. Our DZ is located 180 ft above sea level, weather rarely gets above 25-30 C (30c = 85F) degrees in the mid summer. So I'm not at a High elevation DZ, the weather doesn't play a major role in how the canopy functions. Most days I jump on are 20C give or take 5 degrees. I trust my instructors and they seem very confident that I will be ok under the 135. Brian's chart has me under a 135(min) at 100 jumps as well. I have jumped every single weekend since may 1, usually 2-4 jumps per weekend. I know that's not alot, but it keeps me fairly current. After considering this, and speaking with my instructors, I'll update the post with my action plan... Thanks EDIT for spelling... "When once you have tasted flight..."

That's interesting to know... but I mean to an extent, if you get like a 90 lb girl or guy, they are jumping a pretty low wing loading on a 150 or 170. But nonetheless I never realized that a 135 is considered a HP canopy at a low wing loading. "When once you have tasted flight..."

You know what, we can go back and forth on this all day. I refuse to be seen as a conceited "30 jump wonder" because I'm not and I realize that. I used the advice of my instructors (yes, that's plural) for this purchase. Just me responding in my defence makes me look like a conceited student. If you have advice or opinions for me, I'm more than willing to listen. If you want to nit-pick and warp what I say to your liking, so be it. I said nothign about a canopy, I stated that learning curves are different for different people. Have you never seen someone stupid that makes you say, "they let him/her jump from planes? WOW!"???? There are alot of people at my DZ that I trust and respect. If they didn't think a 135 was safe for me to jump, they wouldn't let me jump it. They have seen my progression and know my skill level first hand. Like always though, I'm not saying this in disregard to the good advice I've gotten, I'm simply stating that first hand advice is what I go by. I may end up jumping a bigger canopy, we'll have to see. I'm going to leave it at that. If anyone else has advice or opinions, feel free, I'll gladly take them into consideration. EDIT: I wouldn't normally snap back like this, but I'm getting annoyed with people picking out little details that don't make any sense to what they're claiming. I kow what you were trying to say MJO, but that's not what it said. I have taken the advice from here, I will consider a bigger canopy and speak to my instructors about it as well. "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hello Karen, As far as the reserve goes, it's a pd143 and I've flown it already 2 weeks ago, unintentionally. It was fine. I've been spotting since jump 10 and spot for myself all the time. Never once landed anywhere near off DZ. I know about flying with rear risers in a tailwind, and fronts in a headwind. Also that a little brakes can get me back from a long spot as well. I have looked into alot of info on canopy control. For body position, I think I'm pretty stable for the most part. I haven't had line twists since my student jumps and once on the Sabre 150 due to end cell closure on one side. Packing. I've packed every chute I've jumped since about jump 10 as well. To be honest, I think my packing goes into the bag very nicely and have never had a problem on deployment. I take alot of care in my packing, especially since my reserve ride which I thought was my fault, but turned out to be a tension knot. Still could be packing error but it happened and I got out of it. As far as jumping a bigger canopy goes, again, I am considering it. A 170 probably won't fit in my container, but I'm sure a 150 will. I am seriously considering a 150. I do take every bit of input from here and consider it and talk to my instructors. I am not in any way disregarding what anyone has said in this post. "When once you have tasted flight..."

To all the above responses... I never once said I am better or "know" what I am doing so it's ok for me to jump that canopy. When I defend myself and my canopy choice it makes me look like I'm throwing my ego around and bashing the people who know best. That is completely not what I'm trying to do. I am taking all the advice I get and will talk to my instructors. You have all got me thinking that the canopy choice was bad, but I also don't have money to throw around to buy a new main or even a used main. AS for the canopy choice in the first place, it wasn't a move to downsize, the rig I got with my instructors advice had a 135 in it. We all figured due to my weight and w/l I would be ok as long as I did a few jumps in between. I jumped student gear (Manta 288) to jump 12 or so, then jumped a Silhouette 210 for 3 or 4, Pilot 168 for 2, Sabre 2 150 for 14 I think. My instructors watched my progress the whole way and cleared me for the 135. Like I said in my above posts, If I jump the canopy in less wind this weekend and it makes me uncomfortable, I will look for a 150. So please don't take anything I say as: I'm a 30 jump miracle and have more know how and skill than you guys. I am simply stating my situation so everyone can understand. "When once you have tasted flight..."

There may be if I can get my paws on a Sabre 2 150... The Spectre only has 37 jumps on it. "When once you have tasted flight..."

Haha, well I was never personally reassured it was going to open. I was fully aware of the long snivels on Spectres. My snivel was about 700-800 feet. I did however do my first jump on a new-downsized rig at 4500. That was the least of my worries to tell you the truth. I was more concerned if the canopy would open without any problems, as it did. I know my EP's and I'm not afraid to use them, as mentioned in a previous post of mine. I may not have mentioned either that my first jump on Saturday was my first jump in 2 weeks and the first once since my first reserve ride all on my first set of gear. I ended up bringing 3 cases of Keiths to the DZ for various reasons. If you dont mind me asking, why would you be fearful of jumping new/downsized gear at 4500 feet? A few mals crossed my mind on opening but nothing that I'd be afraid to get out of. Now put me at 3000 and it's a whole new ballgame. "When once you have tasted flight..."

I agree with all the posts above, and have explained all this before in some of my previous posts. I'm not going to do it all over again, not because I don't want to but probably because you've all seen my other posts. I have not only been talking to one person at my DZ. I've gotten advice from everyone and it's all pretty much the same. It's pretty agressive, but as long as I don't do anything stupid (which I know I can't always prevent what other peple are doing and how I may need to react), I should be ok until I build the experience. I know wingloading is not the only factor. I know line length affects it, which also affects how quick the canopy reacts. The semi-elliptical canopy does the same. The smaller size of the canopy hitting the relative wind also plays how quickly it moves through the air. I know these are things to be aware of and I am. My approaches are straight in to say the least. I have never landed with ther canopy traffic since I've been doing mostly hop n' pops and the other guys are doing rw or tandems or crew and need full altitude. I'm at a Cessna DZ at an airport with tonnes of outs. I realize I may go to another DZ at some point, but not anytime soon since I can't afford it after buying my rig. In no way am I saying I am right and you guys are wrong because I know that's not true. The canopy is VERY agressive and I understand the consequences if I screw up. I have followedthe advice of my instructors and fellow DZ'ers wh watch my landings and aproaches and whatnot. I bought this canopy as I got a great deal on it, and it is something I can use for a very long time to come. I honestly do appreciate the input and concern. Like I said, when I go out this weekend and jump it in much less wind and I do not feel comfortable, I will stop jumping it. I can probably get a 150 in my container and that's what i'll do if necessary. EDIT: I once read on the forums about someone trying to use a Stiletto as a student canopy. Someone said If you gave a 16 yr old kid a Ferrari for their birthday, they generally be just as safe if you had bought a Corolla. They understand how dangerous it is to put something to the limits and do stupid things with it. I may be completely wrong but maybe a canopy that is fairly agressive will give a better learning curve and understanding of how a canopy flies/lands early on. In essence making better canopy pilots. I consider myself to be fairly intelligent and would not do something that I feel threatened by, but I also wouldn't recommend that everyone be so agressive as learning curves are not the same. This agressive canopy will force me to learn very quickly how to fly the canopy in brakes, flat turns, uphill, downhill etc (downsizing checklist essentially)... "When once you have tasted flight..."

Hey Lauras, I know that a 135 is pretty agressive. I've worked with my instructors 100% in my purchase and they had me jumping different canopies along the way. I've been on a 150 since jump 22 I think and now have 36. I weigh 115 Lbs and they felt it would be Ok for me. To be honest, I've gotten this alot and I fully plan to take it very easy under this canopy. I'm not going to show my ego and say, "it can't happen to me" because I know it can. To be dead honest, the canopy did scare me a little. It was a huge jump in speed from a Sabre 2 150. Nonetheless both landings were great! I am going to try the canopy on a no-wind day and see what that yields. If I feel uncomfortable, I WILL upsize. It honestly crossed my mind on the first jump/landing. Just to explain as well, I've been solely concentrating on my canopy work since I've gotten my solo. I haven't even been working on my 'A' CoP. I promise, I will take it easy, I have a good head on my shoulders and know not to low turn etc... but if I can't land it consistently or don't feel comfortable under it, I will definately go to a 150 again. I was landing the 150 with ease and accuracy. This canopy will be with me for a long time to come. It had 35 jumps on it when I bought it, and I plan to keep it for a very long time. "When once you have tasted flight..."

I've been well warned about the snivels. Maybe that's what's making me feel like i'm being jostled. It's the amount of time the canopy is sniveling and grabbing different pockets of air. It was fairly windy Saturday too, so maybe it was turbulent air. I'll see this weekend... Thanks "When once you have tasted flight..."

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Hey Everyone, I finally had the chance to jump my own gear for the first time. I was happily greeted on the ground and could hear nothing but the word BEER. EIther way I wanted to post my first thoughts of the canopy. Jump 1: Hop n' Pop from 4500' I dumped just after clearing the plane and it seemed to take a bit to start sniveling. I almost thought I had a PC in tow. I quickly realized that it was due to the slow deploy speed. As the caonpy was sniveling, it was throwing me around in the harness, it wasn't violent, but it wasn't like anything before. After opening I noticed it was going VERY fast. I've been jumping a Sabre 2 150 up to this point and it was nowhere this quick. Landed without issue. Jump 2: 7500, 15 sec deploy Much more normal feeling on deployment. Opening was the same, jostling me around a fair bit in the harness. Canopy turns crisp, riser controls are nice etc. I love the canopy so far. I will do a few more jumps this weekend as well. My question to the masses is this. Does anyone else get the feeling of the spectre throwing you around in the harness? My instructor said this was typical of a Spectre/7 cell, but I'm very curious. Any info is appreciated. Thanks "When once you have tasted flight..."

100% agreed. Except we don't pay for medical up in the great North, so that's not a concern. I got both rigs back and it cost me alot less than I was expecting, so it all worked out well. I'm just glad I didn't choose to ride it down because I know I would have at the VERY least, broke both legs... "When once you have tasted flight..."