tkhayes

Fox News had Cliven on 7 or 8 times at least, touting him as a 'patriot'. I wonder if they will have him back again or even try to explain their support of him....? Of course the right wing will have short memories of this one I am sure and try to put it behind them. I cautioned everyone in other threads to be careful what you wish for. The 'militias' of this country are not generally in favor of what you are in favor of. careful what you wish for. I think the govt handled this one rather well. backed off, and waited for them to hang themselves. And they did.

I like the idea of a simple card like the SS card, however, that does not define you as a citizen legal to vote. I had a SSN for 10 yrs before I was a citizen. There is not a single piece of ID that could satisfy everyone, and some of the proposed Voter ID laws would disallow the SS cards use

"A well defined problem is half-solved". Still waiting for someone to define the problem. Voters registered in two states would require a national database of voters, which by the way would still be dynamic and changing every second - with no way to statically stop it for an election. Not even sure if that would be Constitutionally legal given the states rights in the roles of election as granted in the Constitution. define the problem. Then we can solve it. Cannot define the problem? Well......

I am not against Voter ID, but the laws that are being put forth put excessive demands on people who are legal to vote and may not be able to get said ID. Cases already posted in this forum. Unlike you and your 'side', we actually provide data to back up our claims. I am for capital punishment in some cases, but not many. And it all falls apart when you execute an innocent person. i feel the same way when a citizen gets denied their right to vote. I ACCEPT the negligible amount of voter fraud that might occur if it allows a citizen to vote who might not otherwise be allowed to. You want a 'perfection' than cannot be achieved with any system and your voter ID laws will not prevent nor stop the situation that you have posted earlier as the basis of your case. What kind of logic is that anyway?

And again, the onus is on the proponents to prove the problem. They make the claim, as do you. Go ahead and make all the claims you want. Back them up with some facts or be dismissed. You sound like a Christian......I know there is a god but I cannot prove it to you, but I know there is one and we would all be better off if we just did it my way.....

There is a reason the right does want this And it is NOT the stated reasons fixed that for you.

I thought you were anti-big-govt? Sounds like a WHOLE LOT of big govt put into place at a huge expense to stop a problem that no one has demonstrated even exists. Very liberal of you I must say....

No it does not. not at all. The question I would ask first is "What law has been broken in the scenario that I have put forth?" Is there even a law anywhere that defines this? And secondly, as maintained from the very beginning of ALL the voter ID arguments, and summarily ignored by those in favor of the Voter ID laws, is "Is this statistically significant?" I expect it is not. given that people might vote in two different elections in two different locations, i doubt that the occurrence of someone voting for EXACTLY the same candidates in EXACTLY the same election occurs much at all. But go ahead and show us the statistically significant cases where this is occurring and I will be waiting..... Again, is the illegal? Or is this an anomaly?

Again, this does not demonstrate 'fraud'. people move all the time. Registering to vote, moving and then registering to vote is not only legal, it could be argued as your civic duty. Even registering to vote, voting, then moving, registering to vote and voting in a new location is not 'fraud'. It is an anomaly in a democratic system of voting. try again

I did not say that. Seriously? You actually believe that? Now please go back and re-read the thread. I know, I know, it's a really long 5 pages....but until you have demonstrated that you have actually read it and my previous posts, I will have little choice but to ignore your posts.

Not similar at all to AGW but at least yours is an example to support my case There is a lot of data and scientific evidence to support AGW. There is little data or scientific evidence to support voter fraud. Nice try though. (note that it is the same argument despite a silly attempt to discredit it on your part)

people voting in one location while a voter record remains in a prior locale was already explained by me in an earlier post and does not necessarily constitute voter fraud. Unless of course your aim is to build a case for voter fraud, in which case EVERY anomaly found might be counted as 'fraud' even if it is not.

Not similar at all to AGW but at least yours is an example to support my case There is a lot of data and peer reviewed scientific evidence to support AGW. There is little data or peer reviewed scientific evidence to support voter fraud. Nice try though.

wrong, I never said it does not exist. and have never said that, but I have in fact consistently maintained that it does not exist to any statically significant amount. And I understand the right wing zealots want ZERO voter fraud and feel that this is a valid goal to achieve, but in fact CANNOT be achieved through any process that might be developed, nor can it be achieved by stricter voter ID laws, Does the definition of voter fraud also include a governments efforts to stop legal voters from voting? And we already have proven that people who should be legal to vote are in fact getting denied their right to vote, examples posted earlier. Apparently you have chosen to ignore the 'facts', just as you have accused me of ignoring the 'facts'. I am still awaiting your sources that demonstrate that a) voter fraud exists, and b) that it is a statistical problem. Go ahead, I can afford to wait. https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+voter+fraud+exists&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb simple searches, - narrow it down to news, then narrow it down to research articles, then narrow it down any way you want....but again just TRY to find the article that says voter fraud is a statistical problem, or a problem at all.

And there are plenty of medical explanations these days for behaviors in people who commit 'sin'. Not all explained away (yet) but obviously physiological factors that affect our lives, predispositions and such, Of course if you believe everything is a choice, then fine, but the evidence does not support it. People born with abnormal brains do in fact act differently in many cases......is that their decision? Or is that your hypocrisy?

Actually there is.....and it is done all the time. There are so many things wrong with your statement it is hard to know where to start. Statistical samples are taken and analyzed and from those samples, VERY VERY accurate statistics come out. No, these things are not done by you nor I, because we are not smart enough to do those things. But it is there, for the very purpose of seeing if there is a problem. Study after study is done by various government and private agencies to look into voter fraud. Why? Because again, people smarter than you and I are actually out there to attempt to secure the system and its integrity. NONE of these studies actually points towards a statistical problem with voter fraud worth fixing. Unless of course you have a source - go ahead and post it please. And most of all "We cannot be sure" is the same argument that Christians make for the presence of their 'deity' as well as the spaghetti monster folks. We cannot and will not prove the non-existence of something. If YOU are going to make the claim that something exists (voter fraud), then YOU have the burden of proof to demonstrate that it is so. YOU and only YOU have that burden. So go ahead and prove that it exists, because it is already known that it does not. Therefore any attempt to fix a problem that does not really exist is in fact up for a lot of criticism and debate. and rightly so. And the rules that are being put into place are not about fixing 'voter fraud', they are about eliminating voters from the polls.

A lot of factors involved, especially logistics. bringing the airplanes together is still a big task for any dropzone, and only a couple have them all on hand. The cost of jumps is rising because a 1 year planning project needs to have some return for the organizers to make it worth their while too. I expect that the market will bear out what the market will bear out

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html

Many of the voter ID laws would allow the registration offices to 'deny' even some state issued IDs. So define what ID is acceptable. The whole point of these laws is to LIMIT the IDs that would be accepted, based on demographic race and a host of other vote-rigging criteria. THAT is the problem. If you think a drivers license is acceptable ID to vote, then great for you. But the voter id laws out there are looking to stop that, or certainly limit it. you think that these are all acceptable forms of ID, fine. Many people cannot get or do not have any of these forms of ID. Or they cannot get them without excess difficulty. THAT is the problem. Legal citizens required to prove they are legal citizens to vote, using a narrow band of types of ID. I dare you, right now, to prove to me that you are legal to vote.....that you are a citizen. Whatever you throw up there in the form of your god-given identification, I will shoot it down in seconds. Even a Texas state Drivers license does not guarantee that you are legal to vote, yet they accept it, since Texas already disallows felons for example, to vote. ID's needed: http://votetexas.gov/register-to-vote/need-id few of which actually prove your legality to vote..... requirements to vote from a different page: http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/pamphlets/largepamp.shtml It's all fucking wonderful....unless you are one of those people who is in fact a US Citizen, legal to vote, but you are denied your vote.

'chilling effect'....well that pretty frickin' important especially coming from some one who is a 'ex' reporter....that means not a reporter anymore right? Wow. I got an ex janitor over here with an opposing opinion.....they think BHO is doing a pretty good job...and Benghazi is dead, and that right wing fundamentalist Christians probably should stay quiet more often.....

I agree, but every time we try to 'regulate' or even change society to do the 'right thing' as you say, it gets shot down as government overreach, intruding on our personal freedoms etc, unconstitutional and all that. If we want absolute freedom, then you can expect people to absolutely and freely go on a rampage once in a while..... actually fairly regularly, whether that be road rage, a knife attack, naked and screaming at McDonalds, or with many guns in a theater or school.

two large Icelandic skydivers went in here last year, both AADs fired, both got line stretch and died. Both were big boys going very fast.

I will raise mine to 1000' when I get the update. The odds of me doing 150MPH+ if I am unconscious in freefall are real.

turning off the TV will not make the problem go away. The Koch Brothers would still have money and influence.

South Carolina gained 52000 people in one year. easily supporting the idea that tens of thousands of people move every year somewhere else....and they probably register to vote and vote in more than one state in a short period of time. It is not voter fraud. It is a slight defect in the system. More voters are added every day as people turn 18. You cannot have a system that will have 100% perfect Identification of all voters every time. And again, when the problem becomes statistically significant, then we should do something about it. It is not, nor it appears, has it ever been. But of course we love the distraction of a scapegoat problem to blame our problems on.