Zipp0

As long as there was what appeared to be probable cause at the time of the search, and the officers involved in the search did not know the evidence that provided the probable cause was flawed, the search is probably legal, and the evidence admissible. If I was the lawyer for the sect I would argue that the police should have known based on the ease of finding the phone number (caller ID? If not, phone records) and the woman's history of making these sorts of calls. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Considering the calls were a HOAX - yes, I do. http://www.krdo.com/global/story.asp?s=8184795 So, you're willing to assume the alleged prank caller is guilty without any proof or trial, but feel the rights of the FLDS have been violated, despite evidence supporting allegations of abuse being found upon execution of the search warrants. I wonder if I am the only one that recognizes your double standard? I just had a gut feeling that the call was BS from the very start, that's all. The whole 'borrowed cell phone' thing sounded like a lie, and then they never found the girl. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Is that true? If the original call was a hoax, but the police followed due process in their investigation of it, does that invalidate the evidence they found later? I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that if the search happened as a result of a hoax, any evidence found as a result may be inadmissible in court. There seems to be lots of legal precendent for that conclusion. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

If that is true, which from that news report sounds possible, that is horrid. And the 33-year old woman arrested should be charged to the full extent of the law. VR/Marg Agreed. The problem is, the sect lawyers can probably now argue that all of the subsequent searches and siezures (of material and children) was based on a lie, and therefore unconstitutional. It's like a guy who is pulled over for a burned out tail light that is working fine, and he has 50 pounds of dope in his trunk. Since he shouldn't have been searched in the first place, the charges are thrown out. That is why I advocated finding the girl, getting her testimony, and arresting the perp, and going from there. Now I am willing to bet we end up with a huge legal mess that goes on for years and costs taxpayers millions of dollars while the sect goes on doing what they do. Then again, the law has meant very little so far, so they may just go ahead and take the kids and burn down the compound. It is, after all, Texas. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Considering the calls were a HOAX - yes, I do. http://www.krdo.com/global/story.asp?s=8184795 -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

LOL. Yeah, evidently the president of the TX bar slept through that part of law school. How do you propose that a man who has say...30 children be managed on a one-by-one basis with the children being the evidence against him? Particularly when the wives of the man will not testify, and cannot be compelled to testify against him? And when his children will not testify, and cannot be compelled to testify against him? Yet there is evidence that a 40 year old man impregnated a 14 year old girl. What do you propose be done? The state was faced with a Jim Jones/Guyana scenario. There are now 350 attorneys for 400+ children. What would you propose be done differently? I propose they follow the law. And it was not a Jim Jones situation. These people are not suicidal. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

LOL. Yeah, evidently the president of the TX bar slept through that part of law school. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Like I said - CIRCUS: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/17/national/main4021790.shtml and http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/18/us/17cnd-polygamy.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

I think it's a valid analogy. Period. Well, for one thing the law states that each case should be handled individually, and that each child should have their own lawyer. That law is being ignored due to logistics by both the Attorney General and the judge. Other than that due process was ignored in nearly every aspect of this case. Take all the kids and then prove something later is the definition of violation of due process. I don't just throw the Bill of Rights out the window because "it's about the children!!!!!!" -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

How many phone calls does it take? And what if she does identify herself but her name is being withheld from press reports? How many phone calls? Well, I would say no phone call is justification to take someone's kids, especially an anonymous call. If that's the case I know how to get some seriously sick revenge on some old enemies. I'll just find a payphone somewhere or borrow a cell phone, make a few calls, and then watch and laugh when someone takes their kids. LOL. And you can bold all of the ALLEGATIONS that you want - that doesn't give your argument validity, as they are just allegations. Like I said, the hearings will be interesting indeed. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Christ man, anyone who has ever been around a child is a potential abuser, and you might have bodies buried behind your house. The hearings are supposed to start otday, and I'm sure it will be a circus. But it should be interesting. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

How would you have established your case? (I.e. in contrast to how it's being done.) Well, first of all, I wouldn't have taken 416 kids based on 1 anonymous phone call. If I were a cop I would subpoena phone records and find the owner of that phone. Then I'd put that person in front of a judge and find out who this 16 year old girl was. Then, if she does in fact exist, I would arrest the man she implicates for rape, and start building a case based on my interrogation of him and testimony of the girl. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

I would have established a case against each man accused of abuse and had him arrested. Which men were arrested for abuse so far? The way it was done, the children will probably be back on the ranch within a few weeks, or maybe even less. Without PROOF of each case of abuse the state has no standing to keep kids from their parents. Sweeping generalizations and heresay are not viable and do not stand up in a court of law. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

I didn't say it would have been the right thing to do, nor am I proposing legislation to support others doing it. I'm just saying it would be at the bottom of my list of things to cry "no fair" about. I'm baffled by anyone who doesn't think several under-age girls walking around pregnant isn't "probable cause". Do you have any idea how many young girls are walking around pregnant in America at this moment? What does that prove, other than the fact that girls are capable of getting pregnant? So no, seeing a pregnant young girl walking down the street is not probable cause to take 416 children from their families. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Here's the thing that makes me wonder. Can't they get the phone number that called the hotline, track down the person, and find out who it was that called? I mean, it can't be this freaking difficult. That and the whole "borrowed call phone" just doesn't add up. These answers would be so easy to get but it seems nobody wants them answered. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Evidently their ducks were NOT in a row.... Their ducks seem to be scattered all over the place: http://www.kutv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=d8eecfb2-0174-4aed-bfcc-b9854fa6cffa I hope their whole case insn't based on accusations against Barlow. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Isn't it generally standard practice to keep an informant's identity secret as long as possible? Maybe so, but if the informant in this case in in Canada it will look pretty bad for police. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Sorry, but you are wrong. The Sherrif would not say where on the planet this informant was. All we have at this point is called "heresay".. http://www.keyetv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=03bbbaa5-9ce4-4160-b953-62a714440e25 -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Wait, I'm confused. Were the police too harsh for taking all the kids away, or not harsh enough for not arresting every adult in the compound? (BTW, if these guys believe that they will be persecuted for having multiple marriages to underage girls, then yeah, that belief is damn well going to be confirmed) Alot of people around here seem easily confused lately. Yes, I think they may have been harsh to take all the kids without evidence that shows each child taken was being abused. (maybe they have this evidence, but so far it seems up in the air) If they did this correctly, every abuser would be under arrest right now. So far there have been no arrests for sexual abuse relating to this raid. If there was so much abuse as to justify taking all of the kids (or females only?) then where are the arrests? -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Probably 70% of the reporting is wrong. That's how it usually seems to go. Anyway, if the police did this the wrong way (and I bet they did) this will solve absolutely nothing and will only lead to further abuse. Unless we see mass arrests of the men who are the abusers and they are locked up for life, this will only drive these people further underground. It is also interesting to note that after the 1953 raid there were no prosecutions. These people have now had their beliefs confirmed. They have been taught that this would happen - they will be persecuted for their faith. This will only steel their determination to carry on. I hope that I am wrong and the investigation was done right so that any and all abusers can be put away for good, because if that doesn't happen, all of this was for nothing. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Right on! Well said. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

What would your recommended course of action have been? /Marg Maybe take the girl who called into custody and start an INVESTIGATION? Nah, fuck that, take them all and sort it out later. Yeah, that's the American way. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

Sure that's the issue(sex with minors), but in my opinion Jeff's crime and a phone call is not enough evidence to justify taking 400 children away. In America you are supposed to be innocent until PROVEN guilty in a court of law. Just wait until this goes to court - It will be a disaster. So they find a bed in the temple and plaster that on the news, like "Look! a bed!!" Big fucking deal. We had a couch in the church - so you could lie down if you needed to! Like I said, this should be dealt with - But they went about it in totally the wrong way. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

My sister accused my dad of (non-sexual) abuse when she was 13, on drugs, and totally out of control. When my dad tried to take control of her life, her answer was to "put him in his place." There was found to be absolutely no basis for the charge, (dropped) and my sister ended up in the psych ward for a week. We all knew it was bullshit, but my dad was devistaed that he had to stand before people and prove that he wasn't an abuser. So it does happen. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

The mountain has a nasty habit of disrupting the best laid plans. Plus, I am fairly certain the Chinese have angered the Mother Goddess of the Earth. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.