Ckret

Quade, great point, which goes right to the fact that by the time Cooper actually jumped conditions were worse than at sunset. Where Cooper jumped there would have been no lights under the clouds. Most likely nothing but darkness, Cooper had no idea where he was at when he jumped,he did not even know the flight path the pilots took out of Seatac. So much for planning this thing out.

low pull You bring up a great point and i can't believe I did not think about this before. We have a great example of how a known expert would do this jump and a novice. If we overlay McCoy to Cooper you devlope clarity as to how it should have been done. McCoy was far different than Cooper and was done how an experienced jumper would have done it. Great more to do, unless there is a McCoy expert out there willing to do it, anyone?

1969912, there are more com's and i will get it to you all as soon as I can. I have found the best way is to give it to the media so they can spend the time scanning it.

Albert, I always wondered what he did in the bathroom, maybe just what most of us do, but it seems risky to me to go into the bathroom and loose contact with those your trying to control.

Whffo, can't talk about the chute yet.

Sluggo, thanks for the warm welcome, you and every one else can just call me Larry. When I first came on here I was testing whether I could use this site as an investigative tool so i hid my identity, it was a ckret. with the exception of a few "pressure bumps" I have found the site to be very helpful and enjoyed the give and take.

They were circling the time Cooper made his comments about locations on the ground. stratostar, the point I was making is that no matter what Cooper did or did not do, the FBI would investigate and did investigate every drop zone in the US. We would do it whether we thought Cooper was a jumper or not just to rule out the most likely.

Mark i forgot to add that, your right, the Pioneer had D rings. In regards to putting the money in the belly reserve, we don't know. Because he cut the canopy out of the container instead of just cutting line i believe he did want to put the money in the container. There was too much (another indicator he did not think this out, if he did he would have asked for 100's) so it would not fit. thats my guess.

1) using logic, you take the best you have to survive the jump. If not why do it. No matter which chute you take the FBI is going to think you are a jumper. 2) He can't be sure of what is in either rig because he never repacked. 4) Why would you destroy the good belly reserve and take the demo, you may need the reserve on the way down? If Cooper is methodical he would have thought, "let me take a look in this demo before I destroy something I may need." (can't have it both ways, he either planned it well all the way through or bumbled) 6) He knew Tacoma from the air and McChord with distances to Seattle locations. Air flight in 71 was not common for most. To be able to spots cities from the air that blend into one another points to repeated air travel. He most likely got in the military, flying over the area.

I can't discuss the chute at this time, but will tell you about it in a few days. The issue I have and will continue to have with posting here is that perception is reality no matter the fact. When someone has the ability to shape perception as he or she desires regardless to fact, I have issue with that from the stance of what and who I represent. I am sure you can see how this can be a big problem, lets try this one more time. We have some breaks in the case to go over and actually I am surprised none of you caught it. Now more than ever I believe Cooper lost his money in the air and screwed into the ground without ever pulling. I believe this for all of the reasons I have posted in the past that I don't have the energy to repost and the following: Cooper had a choice when he picked which chutes to use in his jump, two belly reserves and two back reserves. Which one he chooses speaks volumes to his experience and knowledge of what he was getting himself into. When faced with which belly reserve he was going to use and which he was going to cut up, he chose to cut up the good one. The other belly reserve was marked with X's and would have been "soft" to the touch when handled. The agent who originally interviewed Cossey mistakenly reported it was sewn shut. it was not sewn shut, the canopy was cut in half and the panels then sewn together. This was done so that when students practiced deploying the emergency canopy they could easily gather it and quickly stuff it back in the container for another practice throw. Anyone with any amount of experience would have know the x's on the container meant, "you might not want to use this one when jumping out of a plane." Also, when he picked it up it would have been very obvious, if you have any amount of experience, (by that I mean how tight containers are packed) that something was wrong because it would have been "squishy" (not my word but from someone who would know what the belly reserve would have felt like). If he deployed it, it would have been like one of those guns you pull the trigger and a flag comes out of the barrel that says, "bang." Of course the counter to this is he did know and threw it out of the plane. If he took the time to throw one he would have thrown all. It makes no sense to throw only one. Now the choice of the back chute and this is where I am surprised no one caught this. He had two choices, an NB6 with no padding and no sleeve or a fully padded Pioneer sport chute with a sleeve. If you had any knowledge of the challenges you were facing with the jump you were about to make, why would you choose the NB6, you wouldn't. Also, the pull on the NB6 would have been challenging, not just from the 28' canopy put into it, but from where the handle was positioned. If Cooper wore his jacket his lapel would have covered it. it also had to be deployed by pulling in two directions, out and up. If Cooper would have just pulled in one direction the chute would not have deployed. So here is my theory, nothing new juts more proof. Cooper was in the military during the time frame of 1946 to 1951, give or take a few years. He was stationed out of McChord or Ft Lewis. He served on an air crew in some capacity and received cursory training in emergency exit (which is why he chose the military chute over the obvious choice, it was all he knew). After leaving the military, he was employed in the airline industry but not in any fashion that would give him detailed knowledge but general knowledge of a planes. Most likely as a contractor for Boeing. At some point in the late 60's or early 70's Cooper was fired or laid off and left the area. Cooper, where ever he went, never assimilated into his new life, no friends no wife no family. He formulated his plan not too long before November 71 and sold or threw out all he owned, because he was starting a new life. He made his way to Portland's airport, no one missing him from where he came and no one missing him from his time in the northwest and airline industry. I'll skip ahead (you know or have access to all the details): He jumps and the pressure bump is felt by the crew, but not at 8:11 more around 8:15 to 8:20. The bag of money Cooper tied to him is instantly ripped from his waist as he tumbles. Cooper, not expecting the forces of the jump, desperately tries to pull the handle but he can't find it, panics and no pulls. The theory on the money and it's discovery by natural means in 1980 go here and I do believe it is the most solid. Now what? We have to find the farthest northwest location that the bag could have landed and emptied into the Washougal Water Shed, keeping in mind the 77 flood. next we have to drop a canvass bag of money from 10,000 feet and see how far it travels under conditions. Then we have to take that data and extrapolate it to 11/24/71. With these two items we can find a new flight path and location of the pressure bump. With that, we can come up with a new AB line and if cooper did a no pull locate his resting place at the new point A. To find out who he was, we need a list of all who served on flight crews out of McChord from 46 to 51. I think we can rule out pilots, even if they were not jumpers they have to much awareness of the forces at play and would have thought better of the jump or did it like McCoy. Once we have that list, find all from 5'10 to 6'1 brown hair, brown eyes. Then a quick background, if they were alive after 11/71 they can be ruled out. If they disappeared after 1971 then we have a suspect. The first part is do-able, the second will take some huge effort and the cooperation of those who have other things to worry about right now.

My position or who I am have nothing to do with it, "Jim" enters this thread and begins to fling "skreechy monkey poo" and as a moderator you nothing. He calls people kooks, idiots and a few other names and you do nothing but agree with him in one of your posts. No admonishments, no "official warning" nothing but agreement. I then point out that Jim is acting like an internet bully looking to get a charge from people, that crosses the line with you? All of the vitrolic nonsense that has been posted here and me pointing out that Jim appears to be an internet bully gets you so worked up that I get my one and only "official warning." I absolutely agree with you that you should keep this thread civil, so do it and you may want to start with yourself.

"Attacks" as in the plural? I have never attacked anyone on this thread. I agree with you, however, that things should be toned down. Thanks for your help in doing that.

http://www.stevenrinehart.com/uploads/LarryCarrInterview.mp3

Safe, if there is one thing I've learned its that the best your going to do is please 50% of people. The rest are going to think your an idiot and tell you in many different ways how they came to that conclusion. Look at how many views this thread has got and the info that has come from it. Your playing right into Jim's hands and those like him by letting his posts cut into you. Its the internet, people like Jim troll it, spew crap and when it hits and sticks he gets a little thrill of superiority. See it for what it is, and who he is and more importantly who he is not.

From Coopers actions and requests it can be logically concluded Cooper wanted to jump just after wheels up. Cooper wanted to takeoff with the airstairs down, which could mean he wanted them down to insure they were open for his escape or he wanted to jump as soon as possible after takeoff. Because Cooper began trying to open the stairs a few minutes after takeoff, it stands to reason he wanted out as fast as possible. Cooper had problems getting the stairs to open and it was not until the captain slowed and leveled the plane that the stairs dropped. A few minutes after the pressure change occurred. Cooper never requested a flight path, he never requested an update from the flight crew and no one reported he even had on a watch that he could have timed wheels up. Also, V 23 is not the only low altitude route south from Seatac. Conclusion, Cooper had little idea where he was when he jumped. His original plan, based on what he thought he knew, was toast when the airstairs could not be open on takeoff. He now had to think on his feet. "no big deal, I'll just open them like they told and jump ASAP." More problems, the stairs won't open, "plan C" jump as soon as they do. Each minute that passes puts him a few miles from his original jump location. The stairs finally open, he tries to think what to do, "where am I, not where I wanted to be." tries to gauge it for a minute or two, then "F it, I am this far into it, I'll make it up as I goooooo........"

The area on the map I posted was derived from analysis from the radar data. The rest of the flight path would have been from VOR to VOR

There is no way Cooper could have known Seafirst bank would provide the money, most all of the national banks could have been tapped for this. It was essentially a cash loan from SeaFirst to NWA. The reason SeaFirst provided the money was that NWA most likely had accounts with them.

Yes, they had more than $200,000.

SCPLF, the flight path is what you have, the only detailed area of the flight path is of the area I provided. The rest of it is marked on maps and I can scan it when I get a chance, but it is not of the detail of the map I provided, it's just a map with a line on it and you have drawn the right line. As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI.

The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of this. The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and handed over to NWA. The money was bundled in various counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was secured by rubber band and different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered.

With regard to the Vietnam grudge he would have been to old, the thought here was a son KIA. We already asked the military about jump conditions and their criteria for combat jumps. With the conditions on the 24th, the consensus was the mission would be scrubbed because the casualties from the jump would create a worse scenario on the ground, compounding the problem the mission was originally targeting.

We put Coopers total weight that night at 230 lbs. In regards to the jump, we no it can be done (McCoy and others) but can it be done under the conditions Cooper did it. Its not just 15 MPH winds it's almost 30 MPH winds at 10,000 feet and its not just rain and clouds it's freezing rain at 200 mph. If you tried to recreate this jump, find a night under these conditions with his equipment, would the jump be sanctioned by any governing body? if not why? I know we could debate forever the above and still get no where so lets move forward. However, based on what we know: his age, 45 to 50, puts him out of the general population of sport jumpers of the day, his request for "two front chutes and two back chutes" puts his "lingo" out of a sports jumper. His cavalier attitude of equipment (chutes and clothing) choice makes it seem as if he doesn't realize the challenge he is facing. He new some things about the aircraft but not as much as he thought he did. I believe all of these things, plus many more discussed here, add up to an inexperienced jumper making a jump that would challenge the most experienced. Could he have beat the odds? Sure. Finding nothing points as much to making it as it does to not. Finding a portion of the money in the condition it was found I think tips the scale to not but even still does not mean its so. And lastly, I hope he did make it and he is alive. DB WHERE ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!

I agree, if it was an NB6 it was most likely a 26' canopy, however, the reports state it was an NB6 with a 28' canopy. As stated before, I believe the agent reporting made a mistake but it is in two different reports and attributed to Earl Cossey, the man who packed them.

My first post on September 7th, it may help to summarize who (or at least who I think) Cooper was and I wrote about the grudge. Getting caught up on this thread is exhausting, but I have done it. So lets start from the beginning, who was DB Cooper? -DB Cooper was not a drinker, he only had one drink and spilled a portion of that. If someone was a drinker, in a situation like this he would have had more than just one in the five hours he was on the plane. -He was not a chain smoker, he was on the aircraft for five hours and only smoked 8 cigarettes. That would make him a smoker of less than a pack-a-day and this under normal conditions. -He spoke in an intelligent manner and never lost his cool, he was always polite throughout the ordeal. -He had brown eyes (Schaffner saw his eyes before he put on the glasses, he looked directly at her several times urging her to read the note) -He is 5'10 to 6'1 (Mucklow is 5'8 and spent 5 hours with Cooper, she would know if he was her height or taller. Have someone 5'8 stand next to someone 6 feet, the difference is obvious. Better yet, position yourself at a level of 5'8 and look at someone at a 6' elevation. Now spend 5 hours with that person, you'll know the difference. No one put Cooper under 5'10. -He had olive skin (no make-up, neither Mucklow, Schaffner or Hancock made comment on make-up which would have been very obvious. Again, do the math, put dark makeup on someone then sit next to them with your shoulders touching, you can see the make-up.) -He had dark hair, receding with sideburns (no wig, this would have been painfully obvious, if a man was wearing a wig with a receding hair line and side burns everyone would have noticed, especially Mucklow and Schaffner.) -He was med built (no one put him over 190 lbs, in fact most put him 180 or under. Find a man 6 foot 180 lbs, thats a med to thin build.) These are the facts on his physical make-up, if your suspect does not match these you may want to start looking at someone else. DB Cooper had A.D.D, his attention to detail was poor. He got the big picture, but missed the brush strokes. He was also a "know-it-all." The type of person who would learn a few facts and then become an expert on the subject. One of those people who has just enough knowledge to be dangerous. DB Cooper most likely served in the military and upon leaving used his technical training as a contractor in the airline industry, in and around Seattle. He rose to a mid-level management position but when he could rise no further or his project never got off the ground, he quit or was fired, "because no one understood him or were just to stupid to get it." Soon thereafter he ran into big financial problems that had a set deadline for resolution. Just as always he developed the "big picture" for getting the money but the escape was very poorly planned. Would any of you make the following jump? Here are some facts to consider if he survived and if you could pull it off. The weather: Ceiling of 5,000 feet, broken clouds at 3,500, scattered clouds at 1,500. Winds of 12 to 14 knots, light rain showers. The jump: DB's chute was a military style 28' canopy. The planes speed was 173 knots when he jumped at 10,000 feet in full darkness. The landing: Forest with no lights. Possibly mountainous depending upon which theory you buy into.

Some info to recreate Coopers money bag. Cooper cut all of the line from the chest pack where it was connected into the pack, separating the chute from the pack. By the way, the rubber bands in the pack show no signs of wear. By separating the chute from the pack he must have planned to put the money in the container. When he realized it would not fit, he then cut two lines, one 14'5" and the other 14'6". He then used the line to secure the bag and according to Mucklow to himself. The bag was described as 12"x12"x9"