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I did my AFF on September 1st of this year, and was taught the 45 degree rule. In fact, it was only when I decided to come on here and do some posting and reading and research that it really came to light how much of a failure the 45 degree rule can be..... Talking about these things on here helped me. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Keep it up.

You know, when I decided to get into skydiving again after a 9 year hiatus, the first people I contacted were a booking company.... I can't find the number again to confirm whether or not they were skyride affiliated. Anyways, they gave me some package options and prices, but did let me know what locations they had available (and the 3 dropzones they gave me prices for are all valid, existing dropzones)... As a precautionary measure I decided just to head to the DZ and buy my deal there, and if I ended up paying a little more oh well, better safe than sorry.... well as it turns out, just going to the DZ and booking everything was several hundred dollars CHEAPER. I take it this is the type of scam that skyride operates, although after having looked at some of their websites (as linked in this thread), I can see that they not only are a financial ripoff, but that they are clearly attempting to mislead and victimize people. However, in the spirit of this thread, I was kind of upset to find BOTH of my local, beloved DZ's on that list of DZ's that accept skyride bookings...... I understand that running a DZ is tough enough as it is, and not very profitable.... and any business that you can bring in is valuable..... and so its hard for me to really hold it against them, especially since they may in part be blind to the scams that go on that some people here are aware of. Let me ask this.... what do you all think a DZO might do if he simultaneously received 100 typed but pen and ink signed letters from skydivers with well thought out and composed reasons that he and his DZ should STOP accepting skyride bookings? I mean, as corny as it sounds, look at the NRA... very successful in some ways at what they do, and they FREQUENTLY send out pre-typed letters to members, hoping that those members will in turn agree, sign and date, and mail the letters to the intended recipient (and I am NOT defending all of the practices of the NRA...just think this one has its uses, and can be very effective).... If the spirit of this thread is truly to figure out and do something about the skydiving scams out there, and not about simply venting anger, then perhaps we all can organize something to this effect? I, for one, can personally attest to being nearly victimized by a booking scam, and would like to see my home DZ's removed from that list.

I can't say that theres much for skydiving you can do, but I will say that the normal recommended activities are always healthful!! Particularly of note would be some good walking/jogging... I have no idea what shape you are in, or what you specific age and health condition is, but something to get you're heart rate up and keep it there is always good. You will probably get a seriously increased heart rate with you're jumping, and so you want to make sure that you're body is good and used to that. Also, if you don't have a strong lower back you can get some soreness from arching, especially when practicing on a creeper... this kind of thing is best worked out with a proffessional trainer who can evaluate you individually. Bent over dumbbell rows are great for that, but can also be risky depending on you're overall strength. Glad to hear you're getting into this and all excited about it!!!

well its a good thing that you aren't going into competitions with people with less than 20 jumps then... you'd be screwed by those 2 points!! Not all of us start out good enough for competition.

I bet some of these guys have seen a Cobalt 105 hurt or kill somebody though... or at least a comparable canopy. Probably somebody who said he was good enough to fly it, because he was a "natural" Do you really think people get hurt flying canopies that they think they AREN'T good enough to fly? EVERYBODY that gets hurt said 'I'm good enough to do this!" Some had done it 2 times, and everyone told them they shouldn't be doing it, and they didn't listen.... Some of them had done it 1000 times I'm sure, and most folks would have agreed that they were good enough.... but they got sloppy....or maybe they got cut off on final approach by a crazed babboon under a bath towel that didn't know how to regain control of his airborne Ferrari.

Maybe this is just the instructor then, but we were taught that if you bail out on you're reserve you have a handle on the reserve ripcord... if you bail out on the main (higher altitude) then you bail out with you're hand on the PC. I guess this isn't taught that way everywhere then?

Well, I can see you're point there. I know that when we did my groundschool we discussed emergency exits, and when exiting on the main we were taught that you leave with you're hand on the PC, ready to throw it as soon as you are clear of the plane... I guess that goes along with what you were saying? Because the Hop & Pop as they are called at my DZ don't have us do that. It's more of a quicker skydive from 5k-6k feet.

Wow, I got an email just like that, only mine was in like South Africa or something... and it was exactly that, an "unclaimed inheritance." To be honest, it was actually a pretty convincing email all in all. I never responded... just a little too wierd for my blood. I wish there was a convenient and effective method by which to check the legitimacy of you're source, OP. Wanting to buy that many rigs and not knowing anything about them sounds pretty sketchy to me... I mean even if it is some rich hooligan that has his bean-counter ordering 50 parachutes regardless of price, wouldn't you think he would have gone to a manufacturer? I dunno, be careful with this one dude. There are places and people who specialize in checking these kinds of things out.

I recently did a hop & pop and did a nice, relaxed clear and pull that took about 3 seconds total, it was stable and all. BUT... I wouldn't have been able to do that a month ago... I mean on my training hop & pop you couldn't have said anything to me that would have really helped me learn how to stay stable on exit.... I just had to do it and do it again to figure it out, all the while looking like a winged tie-fighter until I got a grip on the airstream (yes, a Star Wars reference, so shoot me, lol) Although I'm more confident and capable now, I'm glad I had the extra altitude. Knowing that I only had 5 seconds was stressful enough without the confidence to say "I can do this, no problem!"

This is an interesting one... I have not yet had a reserve ride so I really have no idea about landing my reserve in a tight spot... is there sufficient reason to assume its radically different than the main? I'm on a Spectre 210 with a Tempo 210 reserve.

As far as downsizing goes, I have no idea really, I just take the advice of the majority of the experienced guys and THEY are all saying its too fast in Chris' case. As far as the advice he's getting, many people here recognize certain behavior for what it really is, and realistically amounts to... similar to someone who decides he hasn't had too much to drink to get behind the wheel, or someone who is too macho to have a spot on the freeweights... And the same answer over and over again and not moving on comes from those people who have had to feed their friend baby food because he can't chew or use his own arms anymore, or who have seen the look on a mother's face when she learns her son won't be coming home anymore. Some people don't want to spend the rest of their lives wishing that they had said or done more to prevent a rash decision from killing somebody... especially in an activity where you can kill somebody ELSE with you're mistakes.

Isn't this thread a "What do you predict will happen" scenario? Of course nobody knows the exact probability... but theres enough experience rolling around to say that rapid-downsizing increases the risk greatly.... so what is the benefit that outweighs that risk? A better flare is the only answer I can find that was given, and most people have shot that one full of holes.

Perhaps I could have been clearer in my original post... from what I was taught, alti's can and will read somewhat differently, and should not be adjusted in flight... however the same brand of alti is usually what I check against and usually don't get that far off of a reading so it raised a flag... and as it turns out, that flight got cut short by clouds and we landed with the plane. On the ground the woman came up to me and showed me that her alti was reading about 500 feet. So the extra 250 would just have been difference between the two alti's, however in this case hers was off on the ground (maybe the wheel got hit or something? who knows.) I guess this is why we check every time as soon as we sit down on the plane, right?

Someone who works at one of the local DZ's, an instructor who is also in charge of the DZ gear shop... I was shopping for a canopy and related things, and the subject came up about collapsible pilot chutes and I said straightup that I had no idea what one even was. She took one out and showed me how it worked and how to cock it and check that it is properly cocked.. specifically the 3 methods were inflation (drop it or swing it and check that it catches air and inflates), color (check for the color band behind the main pin), and exposed line (check at the bag for how much white line is coming out). Perhaps she stuck with the "wear & tear" reason in the discussion because I was shopping for a canopy or something... I have no idea. Either way its good to be able to ask things like this here. Thanks for all the info. And on that subject... are there different types/brands of collapsible pilot chutes to be aware of? I mean do some work differently than others?

Interesting point. I would feel awfully dumb if I undid someones flap for a pin check and had to ask someone else how to retuck it.

Wow... ok cool, thats good to know. I didn't realize that the PC can be such a bugger on a small canopy.... granted on my 210 at about a 0.95 wingloading its most likely a mere drop in the ocean of drag/lift.

Well I've got some time at work here and the motivation to share my thoughts, so cheers to everyone who can stick it out and read this! I did my AFF ground school and level I on September 1st of this year. In this short time, I've seen some eye-opening things regarding safety and gear checks. Now, some days I swear I feel like every jumper on the load wants to give me a gear check before I get on... and to all these people I have nothing to say, but "Thank you!" And I'll never forget when a packer asked me "Wow! You haven't been jumping with you're toggles stowed like that, have you?" On that note, On one occasion, I was on the plane when everyone was discussing what they were doing, and it was discovered that two young guys (probably early 20's) were doing a 2-way belly fly, but boarded the plane in the completely wrong spot... people kinda gave them some flak about it, and told them "ok.. well when we get to jump run, just scoot up to here and exit before these people" etc. Well, next thing we know, they changed their tune and said "nah we'll just do head down flight." Now... these 2 were wearing student rental rigs, Navigator 220's. Now for all you folks who haven't been to the Elsinore school.... everyone who trained here knows that those 220's are old and the containers are good for belly down ONLY. I mean I "think" the reserve pin flap stays shut? The rest are gonna be flapping in the breeze, and the bridle may as well be hanging out there too. Anyways, they kept their spot (which happened to be right before me), and on exit I spotted them... they of course went belly down instead of any kind of freeflying. When I landed, I happened to be near them, and walked up to one and said hi and started discussing skydiving since I had never seen them before... well to make a long story short, they were happy to admit neither of them had gone skydiving in about 8 months and they didn't do any refresher or anything... just lied to the front office I guess. Dunno how that slipped through the cracks, but they disappeared quickly after that... I assume they knew they caught attention. Second experience... this one was the other day. Another newbie jumper I've seen at the dropzone was getting some of his solo's done on the way to his A license (I think he had 17 jumps or something). I noticed that he was a little headstrong about things, but didn't think too much of it... well turns out a little while later, he came walking back pretty shaken... apparently his leg straps loosened completely while under canopy... I mean all the way to the stops. He was obviously shaken and amped, and after turning the rig in and complaining about how the gear was "unsafe", he proceeded to tell me how it was "bullshit" that the dropzone wanted to make him jump student gear, and that he would never jump it again, and was going to go right out and buy his own rig, and damn the dropzone that tries to not let him jump it, etc. etc. Clearly something fishy here... he and another solo student that was talking to him and on that load both swore he did his leg straps up before he got on the plane.... the rest of civilization says that he probably drew them tight but didn't secure them properly. I agree with that... buckle/strap isn't exactly prone to failure unless the strap is really worn and these were not. Case 3, and perhaps the one that scared me the most.... I was on a load behind a 3-way. One of the jumpers, a bigger guy, had a student rental rig (he probably had to use the student rig because those are the only way to rent bigger than a 210, and he was on a 240). Well, about halfway through the flight, his buddy noticed that he was shifting around his straps a little bit and checked the size adjustment... he had them set on small, when he was clearly too big for that. So IN THE PLANE in flight, they decide to resize it a bit.... in doing so realize that they couldn't do it with the rig so tight on him, so they went to undo his chest strap to assist... but had a hard time with that because he had done up his chest strap completely wrong. After getting that out and getting the sizing adjusted, they put him back together and all jumped. Since I was also on a 240 and there were only so many, I happened to get that SAME RIG after it was repacked... and on my gear check I found that the Cypress was off. Now I know you don't HAVE to have you're cypress on, but in this case I'd bet dollars to pesos that it wasn't off because he CHOSE to leave it off. The biggest problem I had with this whole thing is that the guy who was sorting him out in the plane was a VERY senior jumper who is buddy-buddy with god and country at the dropzone, and in my honest opinion, could have prevented this or stopped him from jumping due to an obvious lack of proper gear check and knowledge. On a positive note, it was recently that I was in the plane doing my whole breathing/relaxation thing, and at about 3000 feet tapped the woman next to me and asked to see her altimeter to compare it to mine. She gave me a $1,000,000 smirk that said "sure newbie, here you go" and half cocked her wrist for me to see.... then I proceeded to ask her why her altimeter read almost 750 feet higher than mine. Turns out hers was off and mine was fine.... and graciously enough she made sure she thanked me for being safety conscious. I guess the whole point is that I have noticed some experienced jumpers cue in to student gear or brand new, shiny gear the way a cat cues on a shoestring... and they start asking questions and checking and double-checking. There are not enough of these people in the world, nor will there ever will be... and a heartfelt thanks to every one of them for the effort. As for me, I learned from experience #2 listed above that even I, with my limited experience, should be paying better attention to my peers... even ones I'm not jumping with.

Perhaps I misspoke... what I meant to say was that I was told that the reason to USE a collapsible pilot chute is that it reduces the wear on the topskin of the main by collapsing, vice when a regular pilot chute stays flying and pulling at the connection point. This SOUNDS like sound reasoning, but I was wondering if anybody had any hard data on whether or not this was more hype than anything else.

So I just bought a nice Spectre 210, my first canopy (I was renting this one prior to this, but finally found one to buy) and now I'm faced with a decision... Currently I have a non-collapsable pilot chute. I hear that these put significant wear on the topskin of the main, and I'm concerned about that... is it really a concern? I understand this is why collapsable pilot chutes were designed, but I was just curious if it was mostly hype or not? Is there anything in particular to look for when shopping for a collapsible pilot chute? I went through how they work and how to cock one with an instructor over at my DZ the other day, so I understand the purpose, and how to cock it, and the 3 checks to see that it is properly cocked (float, color, exposed line).

Hey Chris! I posted a reply on the other thread that I was hoping to hear back from you on, check it out if you get the chance. It sounds to me like you're seriously concerned about you're pride, and you're willing to go to the edge to prove you're a badass.... thats the way I take you're defiance anyway. Trust me, I understand that... Years in the military taught me all I could handle about aggression. This is a dangerous sport. Based on what I read here, it seems to me that you're wingloading and downsizing is of concern, but almost less so than you're defiant attitude. Simply put, defiance kills. Nobody here will stop you from jumping that canopy if you are set on jumping it... but alot of VERY educated advice is being thrown at you to NOT fly it. If you ARE going to fly it, I think everyone here would like to hear from you about exactly HOW you plan on being safe? Are you going to jump right into traffic and possibly cut off a more experienced skydiver and cause an incident, or are you going to hang back and practice landing you're Ferrari in the dirt where its safer? Are you asking coaches/instructors to take a look out the window and critique you're landings? Have you done a canopy controls course? The fighting on here is only pissing everyone off, I'm hoping maybe we can get this on a consctructive course... after all, to all you pro-jumpers posting here, theres plenty of us newbies reading this stuff and trying to learn as well.... and aside from browbeating Chris into not downsizing so rapidly, what other recommendations might you have for him regarding canopy/landing safety under a new/higher wingloading? Eventually I like to think I'll downsize a little, and I can always use the safety advice on how to do it correctly. I am editing this to add that I just managed to find and read through Billvon's checklist on the "Safety/Canopy Control" section of this website, and thats some good stuff... I have practiced front riser turns and dives, and even flat turns... but always at like 3000 feet, and just tried to keep track of what altitude I started and finished at with 5 and 10 second applications of front risers (and various degrees of turn). Have you read through this stuff? Might be really helpful for you to read/work on this stuff if you haven't.

Wow. Lots of fire and brimstone on this thread, thats for sure. Chris, have you done any canopy control courses, or done any special canopy coaching or anything? I just read "The Parachute and Its Pilot" by Brian Germain almost cover to cover (kinda skipped the swooping specifics part for now, I'll go back to that later) and found it to be very educational. A little preachy perhaps (you can tell Mr. Germain is definitely a psyche major ), but especially the information on accuracy and how to plan a landing was VERY cool. If you haven't read this, I would highly recommend it. Of note, he recommends the whole Wingloaded-Never-Exceed chart based on jump numbers as well (ie. do not exceed 1.0 with less than 100 jumps, etc.) I see the arguments being weighed here (all based on experience and an honest concern for the safety of others, mind you), and I also see that you are happy and secure in you're decision... well I hope all goes well for you, and I'd like to encourage you to be as safe as you can be. If you are gonna fly that high of a wingloading, maybe you could be safer by kinda staying out of traffic until you've got some more experience on it? Don't let me be the only guy landing out in the dirt instead of the nice grass strip

My DZ teaches the method of two hands on red, get it clear, then two hands on silver method (yeah yeah, look, grab, look etc just don't wanna type it all out). A lot of people around the dropzone talk about the one hand on each handle method... Another new jumper who has about my experience level had a cutaway recently and for some reason abandoned his training and went with the "advice" all the experts talk about and tried pulling cutaway with right and then reserve with left..... well his right hand pulled the pillow halfway out of the velcro and slipped off, but his left hand had a nice thumb hook on the handle and he pulled his reserve handle without his cutaway being pulled.... luckily his reserve deployed ok and he went back and finished his cutaway quick enough that he didn't entangle and dangle. Just thought I'd bring that up....

Well theoretically this could go in the Canopy skills forum, but since I'm pretty new and this is very much a safety related question about training related activities, I will post it here. I found a great deal on a starting rig, and its in a UPS container somewhere, to be here early next week. I've been jumping a Navigator 240 at about a 0.77 WL, and this one is a PISA 230 (A hornet I believe). I thought about getting a 210, but to be honest... even with a big canopy like this, I feel like it can do WAY more than I know how to make it do in the air, at this point, especially regarding things like riser turns, dives, and flat turns and all... That brings me to the point, which is landings and wind. I've landed with no wind a few times, and I reliably land into the wind when its there.... but I am also still on an A license and landing out in BFE instead of joining the pattern/chaos in the nice grassy knoll 15 paces from the packing area. I've heard all the people in the plane talking about who will be down first setting the pattern, and how if the pattern is set wrong to just go with it anyways.... and it makes me think about wind and emergent/unplanned landings. Is it a good idea to practice cross and downwind landings? I mean especially since I'm landing out in the middle of nowhere, where dreams go to die and all... Perhaps there's a bit of a good routine for trying this? I AM on a relatively large canopy so I know that the wind will take me for a ride if I try it, but for some reason it seems to make sense that if I at least practice it some out in the field, then perhaps someday when Public Works installs power lines right under me during the flight, I will be better equipped to handle landing wherever I can... Suggestions?

All this information has been really helpful, and I appreciate all of the feedback. I took a look at a couple rigs so far, and I think that the dolphin might be my best option... tomorrow I'm going to call the DZ (its actually for sale by a DZO in Wisconson) and ask him a little about the exposed bridle, to see if I can get an idea about it. The rig looks great, has gotten great reviews... and its priced for poor people like me!! Thanks again for the input.

Well you have me cornered there BUT, there are many activities and places in the world that require discipline, self-reliance, and prompt, correct action to prevent catastrophe... and unlike skydiving, some of those activities I am intimately familiar with, especially from an instructor standpoint. I merely wish to say that the instructor who taught my school managed to cover the purpose of the AAD and RSL, yet still got it into our thick, novice shaped skulls that the reserve ripcord is the only correct answer. I would hate to believe that someone had withheld information from me in an effort to protect me from myself. But let me turn this around a bit to a consctructive direction then... have you ever had feedback about it? Have any students come up to you later and mentioned that they a) wished you hadn't kept info from them or b) were glad you did?