snowmman

Orange1 made a reference to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqccyUpnZwA

Court case involving eTreppid's "Big Safari Contract" with the USAF eTreppid and Dennis Montgomery are the players in my previous post. This is from 2007 http://fas.org/sgp/jud/statesec/etreppid082907.pdf DENNIS MONTGOMERY and the ) MONTGOMERY FAMILY TRUST ) 3:06-CV-00056-PMP-VPC ) BASE FILE Plaintiffs, ) ) 3:06-CV-00145-PMP-VPC vs. ) ) ORDER RE PROTECTIVE ORDER ETREPPID TECHNOLOGIES, LLC; ) WARREN TREPP; and the UNITED ) STATES DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, ) ) Defendants. ) ) AND ALL RELATED MATTERS. ) The United States’ supports its application for protective order under the military and States Secret privilege by the Declaration of John D. Negroponte, formally Director of National Intelligence, and a Classified Declaration which has been reviewed by the Court in camera and ex parte, which demonstrate that disclosure of information at issue in this litigation subject to the proposed protective order could be expected to cause serious, and some cases exceptionally grave damage to national security. ... a. The existence and nature of the 'Big Safari' contract (hereinafter referred to as 'the Big Safari Contract') between eTreppid and the Unites States Air Force, including but not limited to the fact that the Big Safari Contract required eTreppid to perform data analysis and the fact that the data analysis eTreppid performed under the Big Safari Contract involved image identification technology; ... 11. As the United States deems necessary, attorneys for the United States may attend all depositions and proceedings in this case and may make objections as necessary to protect national security information. If attorneys for the United States assert an objection based on the need to protect national security information with respect to either witness testimony or documents introduced or otherwise relied upon during a deposition, then the witness shall be precluded from testifying with respect to the line of inquiry that engendered the objection, and the document shall be withdrawn from the record pending an order of the Court with respect to the scope of the government’s national security objection.

377 said "Some wacked out nuke scientist forsees a message of impending Soviet ICBM attack hidden in the chess moves of a Russian opponent." Okay this is a true story, and I'll provide the link below. A company said they could decode bar codes from Al-Jazeera broadcasts, that encoded latitude and longitude to Al-Qaeda for their next strikes. Really. They demonstrated this to CIA and got money. Some of the US "terror alerts" were tied to the warnings created by this "technology" I'm not bullshitting you. I read this and thought "how come we missed out on that at SI". here's a link. It's a great read. It was in Playboy magazine ( i read it for the articles) but it's true. Dennis Montgomery summary here: http://www.news.com.au/technology/playboy-goes-undercover-with-dennis-montgomery-the-man-who-fooled-the-cia-over-al-jazeera-codes/story-e6frfro0-1225812662560 also at NPR http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121667905 the actual playboy article here (I think..I'm blocked at work from Playboy) http://www.playboy.com/articles/the-man-who-conned-the-pentagon-dennis-montgomer y/index.html?page=1 excerpts from the NPR interview RAZ: Let's start at the beginning. What was Dennis Montgomery claiming he could find in Al Jazeera's broadcasts? Mr. ROSTON: First of all, let me point out it's still all classified. That said, what he was claiming to find were barcodes in essence. Sequences of information that he said then revealed the targets of intended terrorist attacks. RAZ: Barcodes from a television signal? Mr. ROSTON: Yeah. He said they were sort of embedded within the digital feed from Al Jazeera, so - and which is potentially technically possible, of course. You could sort of scramble the pixels in various ways. But he said he could decode all this and find these barcodes or sort of things like barcodes. And he said these translate into coordinates - latitudes or longitude, times, flight times, flight numbers - and those were terrorist targets, he claimed. RAZ: Let's back up for a moment. How did Dennis Montgomery convince the CIA to give him business, because they gave him business? I mean, they actually put some money into this. Mr. ROSTON: He was in business with another man, as the article describes, in a company called eTreppid. They were the initial contractor, although later, he would sell the same, or try to sell the same software through another company with another partner. The first partner was a man named Warren Trepp. Now, people who are familiar with Michael Milken and the big scandal of the '80s, the Drexel Burnham scandal... RAZ: The junk bonds. Mr. ROSTON: ...the junk bonds scandals, exactly, they'll be familiar with Warren Trepp because he was Michael Milken's right-hand man in the junk bond schemes. RAZ: And he was running this company that hired Dennis Montgomery and that company managed to get the contract with the CIA. Mr. ROSTON: Exactly. RAZ: You write about some of the code orange security alerts that came directly from Montgomery's so-called analysis of those al-Jazeera signals. Describe some of them. Mr. ROSTON: On the 21st of December in 2003, there was this huge announcement -it was a Sunday. Everything seemed to be going fine that Christmas season, and then suddenly on that Sunday, Tom Ridge, the secretary of Homeland Security, made this announcement: we're going to orange alert - and nobody knew what it was. Reporters, you know, investigative reporters and then people who cover the intelligence community and so forth, were all trying to gauge what was going on. They talked about was there chatter intercepts and informants and so forth. What it was was this guy's analysis or supposed analysis of al-Jazeera. And people in the CIA, people who knew what they were talking about, were furious. Every quote I got from them was basically full of expletives. They were so upset. They were just losing it. RAZ: But who believed him? I mean, who believed him there? Mr. ROSTON: What happened was there was a particular division called science and technology, and they were the CIA's, you know, sort of high tech group. The ones that you often like in the movies - they make disguises and intercepts and special little gadgets. They were the ones that believed it. They were the ones that gave him the contract. RAZ: And some of this data reached Frances Townsend, who was President George W. Bush's senior counterterrorism advisor. Mr. ROSTON: Yeah. Well, what happened was sources told me she was chairing the meetings during this time that resulted from this stream of supposed intelligence. She was the one who President Bush appointed to oversee the response meetings - and she would hold them every day. And so I talked to her and she did admit she held those meetings. She agreed she held those meetings. She remember all the intelligence, she sort of laughed about it. She said, well, they had to take it seriously.

Jo the expert on kids running with money said 'Brian was a child - when children come running with money in their hands - the crumbles fall." But the money was found both vertically and horizontally dispersed in the sand. How do explain the variety of depths the shards were found at? Are you saying they were mixed up with that amount of sand, in the 2-3 days after Brian ran around? You're saying that amount of sand arrived in those 2-3 days and uniformly mixed in with the shards (as opposed to being washed away or washed somewhere). Jo: do you think anyone believes anything you say? What do the people that work for you think about this issue? Do they believe the Brian Ingram running-with-scissors theory?

377 said "Orange and I were constructing an ideal Cooper: 727 tech knowledge, smoke jumper, skydiver with night jumps, OUS resident in 71, SE Asia connection... And Snow finds a perfect match." you forgot the all important age, height, physical description. Throw all that in as requirements, and you'd think it'd be hard to find someone, unless you just had to look thru Snowmman Industries employee records.

so we mentioned Knoefler because of Dire Straits. But Knoefler also wrote music for the movie "The Princess Bride". (this may prove 377's point about how everything eventually becomes relevant) "The Princess Bride" reminds me of something that ticked me off about Ckret. This goes back to a post I made Nov 13, 2008. Titled "obvious question for Ckret" here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3393457;search_string=%26quot%3Bobvious%20question%20for%20ckret%26quot%3B;#3393457 I posted Ckret, you stated that the members of the informal Boeing "jump club" were all investigated. I presume this was the membership as of 1971. The Boeing 727 was designed starting in 1959. The first delivery was in 1964. (727-100. first delivery 727-200 in 1967) From what I can tell, the first time Boeing employees got together for an informal jumping club was in 1962. If there was any suspicion Cooper might have been involved in some way with the 727 design or rollout, then an obvious investigation would be anyone involved in this informal jumping club from 1962 to 1964 or 1965. Actually, one could imagine that it was a waste of time investigating 1971 members. I'm assuming the 1962 to 1965 period was thoroughly investigated also? You mentioned that the case has been investigated thoroughly, so I'm assuming the answer is yes. If the answer is no, that's good too, it just confirms there really wasn't much of an investigation. Now what was interesting (at least to me) was Ckret's answer.. I had another post in between where I buried this dig at Ckret for not answering the above. I said http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3394517;search_string=%26quot%3BYeah%20you%20missed%20something%26quot%3B;#3394517 "4) Yeah you missed something. You didn't answer my question with your name in the subject. surprisingly, he noticed the dig and replied with this classic scene from "The Princess Bride" http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3110098;page=205;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; Ckret posted: A question with my name in the subject? I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of such a question and if the answer to said question would have been yes then the complete answer in whole is no. However, there are those questions we know we know and then those questions we know we don’t know. It would seem your question falls in the category of a known, known; which then could only mean that you in fact are trying to trick me. This would then lead you to believe I guessed wrong, however, you only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

at the time Ckret released the aerial photos of tena bar, I remarked that you could see pipeline dredges downstream from Tena Bar, with their output pipes extending to shore. That suggests that dredging did happen up closer to Lewis, but it also shows that dredge spoils didn't seem to be transported. BUT: my paper about dredge spoil sites, was when I was trying to show you couldn't just dump dredge spoils anywhere. So, did they ever use hopper dredges and transport material to a spoils site? I don't know. I think not. Here's the picture showing pipeline dredges downstream from Tena Bar. The picture is from Sept 6th, 1974...So it's less than 1 month after the August 1974 dredging around Tena Bar. The full picture is available at sluggo's restaurant: here: http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/Tena%20Bar%2009-06-1974.jpg Those could be the same pipeline dredges. They're not very far from Tena Bar. You can see how they put the output pipe on floats at intervals. (edit) Ckret said the relevant dredging was August 19 through the 25th, 1974, and the court case I mentioned said August..but it seems like dredging continued on the river until Sept at least? so maybe they were dredging all summer? (edit) for comparison, 2nd attach is a closer picture of a known pipeline dredge on the Toutle River after the Mt St. Helens eruption, from http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ohq/106.2/willingham.html You can see how the output pipe layout matches what you see in the '74 picture. (edit) 3rd photo is a closeup of a pipeline from a dredge. not sure of the pipe size. But you can it's on floats like in the prior two pictures...more clear because it's close.

Given enough time, anything will eventually become relevant or did I get that part of Stat 112 wrong too? 377 That's the buy-and-hold strategy for the stock market. The problem is "long time" might exceed your lifetime. Hmm. I wonder if I'll be posting here in 10 years, referencing posts made 11 years ago. I wonder how long this thread could last before DZ.com does a major change or something happens. The odd thing is I can still find posts I made to usenet groups back in '92. It's really weird to see stuff you posted 18 years ago (thru google groups, who bought dejanews, if you remember back when). Will this thread live for 18 years? Or will it rust away and be buried by the post-dredge layer? Jo may have it right. It will only be perserved on paper. The book will be "The DBC Thread. By Jo Weber" She'll print it after she's outlived all of us. History is written by either the winner, or the survivor.

The rusty metal stuff close to the dredge layer. I wonder if that came up thru the dredge pump. Seems possible. If not, where did it come from? Fazio? Drift wood with nails? But the nails were loose? Did the wood rot away? random loose nails are not what you usually find. You find them on a construction site in the dirt, because workers just drop nails and don't pick them up. But random loose bits of iron under Tena Bar is odd. I've found strap hinges and rusty angle iron, but it's always still attached to pieces of wood..not loose metal. (rare) I guess things like bedsprings, car parts etc are bigger metal objects you might find. loose nails is odd.

georger asked "And to re-ask an old question: Who was in charge? Is this a major excavation - arcaheological dig - without a Master Planner? Where's the records for this major archaeological dig!?" Dorwin said there was a wall of records in Portland. I wonder if there is stuff in Portland that didn't get moved to Seattle. Or if it did, it didn't get read, because agents believed they had all relevant info already. I don't think the investigation did much "from the evidence out" work...it sounds like all their work was following tips. Or interviewing at hotels, airport, etc. I suspect they didn't write a lot about the dig.

Next to some tributary? Himmelsbach promoted the theory once of Cooper crawling injured to a tributary, and the money falling in, and Cooper dying next to the water. There's no place that's worth it for Jerry to look. That's why he's in the same camp as Jo. There's no place in the whole states of OR and WA together, worth looking at. Only a crazy person would be looking for stuff. They both think they've got some elevated status because of their personal meetings with Himmelsbach. It's a mini cult.

georger said "A briefcase is not mentioned in the Palmer Report, my source says." Palmer wasn't there for the entire dig right? So Palmer isn't a good source for the sum total of stuff found, I think. So while the briefcase might not be true, not being mentioned in Palmer's report doesn't mean much. For instance: how much did Palmer talk about fragments, shards, or the state of the bundles Ingram found? Probably not much.

from georger's post "The post dredging sand layer under the upper active working layer contained older soda pop cans, rusted nails and spikes, and other older rusted artifacts, which were in a much more deteriorated condition indicative of their age compared to the upper active working layer. " Yeah, there's no way Palmer was an expert on rusty objects! I think he was just looking for something to validate his opinion? There are other massive contributors to rust: acidity (pH), water content, oxygen content. Heck I suspect there was non-uniform distribution of iron thru the depth. The "stuff" at the top may have been more naturally resistant to rust. Who knows. Without the objects, it's all speculation, as georger says. (and if aluminum cans were there, well they don't corrode so fast) hey my Coors aluminum can sidetrack was on topic.

Why does Himmelsbach have more credibility than Dorwin? Dorwin, I think sounds more accomplished as an agent then Himmelsbach. I looked for stuff Himmelsbach had done, and didn't find a lot. Maybe Jo can fill us in. Jo also suggested Brian would be a better witness Jo said "As far as a debris field - I know that answer - but pick up the phone and call him or even Ingram - he was just a kid, but he might be a better witness than an FBI agent who is rambling at best...perhaps pulling Bruce's leg just a little." So Brian, the kid that's selling money at auction houses, and was a kid then, is a better witness than the guy who headed Norjak after Himmelsbach? Here's the clear truth: you've wasted 14 years of your life. I don't know if we can take Jerry at face value for the amount of time he says he's spent, but that's been a waste also.

Jo the money fragment dispersal expert reported: "Considering Brian had already brought the money to the surface - and a couple of days before the FBI converged on the area - that would explain the 20 ft debris area." You're saying in 2 or 3 days, money fragments that Brian raised, but left, got mixed into the sand, over that area, at those depths? ('thousands' ??) By what, water? How did water do that? Why didn't the little shards you're talking about, float away? What you say doesn't make sense. Can you explain more? You're saying the money was in one state on Sunday when Brian found it. And then fragments left by Brian got dispersed into the state the FBI agent reported, in the intervening 2 or 3 days? Why and how? Did Brian leave money fragments there? A pile of small ones? Why didn't they wash away before Brian found his bundles? Did Brian uncover more money than just his bundles, but left it there? I'm assuming water is causing the dispersal? Why would the money fragments get buried in sand? Or are you suggesting people buried the fragments in the sand after Brian's find? or ?? Are you saying water both moved fragments after Brian's find and also buried them with sand.in those 2-3 days? I just can't picture this scenario you're describing Jo. I also still can't believe Jo doesn't realize she's nuts.

I think they said they wanted "Proof" and Jo heard "Poof" and said "I have evidence of Poof!"

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3229648;search_string=Fazio%20dredge%20winter;#3229648 this post included info from the guy living in a houseboat behind Caterpillar Island (recent) he said "Fazio dredges with an Auger suction dredge (do a wikipedia search) every winter (it's illegal to dredge after April 1st, salmon habitat and all). They pump the dredge spoils up onto the hill, so every year the sand increases, then decreases as the sand is trucked out." Also, remember I posted how the Fazios got their dredging permit renewed recently. (updated to add below) (edit) I had posted at http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3684983;search_string=fazio%20permit;#3684983 (source info is at the url) "I was intrigued by the Fazio's dredging operations. I found they had hired an environmental consultant to get their dredging access permit renewed recently. They claimed they had been doing it since 1995. I don't know for sure when the earliest was. But I found their dredging permit from 2004. (It expires at the end of Oct. this year) There are 3 pages. The second page has a picture of the exact location the dredge goes to. It's at the plume area in '74, that seemed to have runoff. Georger talked about this a lot apparently from info from Tom Kaye and Fazio. It's right at the big sand hills, which you would expect. " attached the permit thing again (2004)

I have posted about the dredging the Fazios did. Maybe the above Palmer report is not consistent with the '74 dredge displacing the money, but IS consistent with the Fazio dredging displacing the money. (edit) I forget, but maybe we said Fazio didn't dredge as early as '74-'80. I don't remember the answer to that.

Jo posted the following, I think claiming georger posted it. But I can't find the original georger post...maybe he deleted it. That must have been what happened. So georger, did you post the following from the Palmer report? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3622324;search_string=%26quot%3Bgeologist%20palmer%20advises%26quot%3B;#3622324 misspellings like uppermpost make me think jo is quoting a georger post, also if you look at the link, she sounds like she was ranting to georger. The fragment issue is answered with this summary you posted: 'Geologist Palmer advises that he found the beach area in the vicinity where the money was found to be in approximately four different layers. The layers consisted of an upper sand layer, a post dredging sand layer, a clay lump (dredge) sand layer and below that an older sand layer. The upper layer consisted. of six inches to eight inches of reworked beach sand and is the sand which contained the fragments and bundles of the recovered money. This sand also contained soda pop cans and other debris, which were not severely damaged and/or rusted. This uppermpost layer is what I shall later describe as the 'upper active working layer' because it is most recent in aquisition showing signs of both acquisition and erosion, in the near term. The post dredging sand layer under the upper active working layer contained older soda pop cans, rusted nails and spikes, and other older rusted artifacts, which were in a much more deteriorated condition indicative of their age compared to the upper active working layer. "

377 said "I REALLY want to know if that briefcase piece recovery story is true. The briefcase sure makes more sense as a money bag that a jury rigged pouch fashioned from a reserve rig." it may be unanswerable. Remember Georger posted about other stuff they found in the sand? (I don't know where georger got that..the palmer report?)..he said cans (edit) see my next post for what georger posted. interesting detail about rusted stuff and variations in layers. Maybe the "briefcase" turned out to be other random garbage? later disproved by FBI technicians maybe? I'll search for georger's "cans" post.

Jo ranted "As far as a debri field - I know that answer - but pick up the phone and call him or even Ingram -" Why would Himmelsbach know everything about the FBI dig? (more so then the guy running Norjak post Himmelsbach) Himmelsbach is much older than Dorwin. Why would Himmelsbach memory be sharper than Dorwin's? Remember Himmelsbach also likes the Washougal. Why would Brian Ingram? Why would Jo Weber? Jo Weber can not be Buddha. If Jo Weber is Buddha, well I don't want to be part of this world. Jo Weber the evidence techician reported "that would explain the 20 ft debris area." I think Himmelsbach never accepted that he was never part of the post-money-find stuff. Jo, where did you get this 20 ft number? If you had this number before, why didn't you report it before?

I think Snow may be using this forum as a practice site. His goal is eventually forming a cult. Lots of money in that game. Look at L. Ron Hubbard, Rajneesh, Maharishi, Werner Erhard, etc. Talk about money for nuthin and chicks for free... Those guys wrote the damn book. 377 Yup. You can picture my infomercials on late nite tv already. Think of the late, great, pitchman Billy Mays bellowing: "Using the proven "Cheat To Win (tm) philosophies, you too can do things like: -crack 40-year old unsolved FBI cases -get South African skydivers to jump with you -jump from planes without a parachute -get free drinks in a bar -sing like Frank Sinatra Call now. Operators are standing by"

georger said "What we have here is an extremely strong circumstantial case complete with witnesses which a little physics will make even stronger. " yes, the latest witness is the strongest and most credible (plus he headed up the norjak investigation post Himmelsbach, which really started with the money find. H. wasn't involved because he was retiring in just days!) We had an earlier FBI agent who found money but he only had minimal info. We have Fazio, right? talking about shards. We have the Seattle head of the FBI being quoted about more fragments found, within days of the money find. This is pre-internet. So no email. He probably got a phone call, since mail would be slower? He didn't read it in the papers and regurgitate it to reporters. So there's a whole bunch of aligning information. The only unaligned information is from Ckret.

I only know electronics, LORAN, GPS jammers etc You are more of a big picture guy G. Besides I did really poorly in statistics. I got a good grade but I had no idea how to use the teachings. My prof used to post absurd trick stat arguments like proving black is white etc and I could never see the trick. If you left the particle analysis to me I might accidently conclude that it was all from a bag tossed off a bridge by Duane. I am confident you'd not let that happen. 377 Hey this is the USA dammit. A poor paintball gun designer can dream of breaking a big FBI case. A social anthropologist turned physicist can do the same. Unless Jay Leno wants to do it. Then you're screwed. Maybe the object lesson of the Cooper case is age old: "If you meet Buddha in the road, kill him" i.e. Whatever your conception is of the Buddha, it’s WRONG! Now kill that image and keep practicing. This all has to do with the idea that reality is an impermanent illusion. If you believe that you have a correct image of what it means to be Enlightened, then you need to throw out (kill) that image and keep meditating. Could that Buddha be you yourself, having reached Enlightenment? http://www.dailybuddhism.com/archives/670

377 said "I guess Jo cold say the bag Duane tossed off the bridge was dredged up and discharged on Tena Bar, but thats a real stretch." Jo gave us a date for when Duane threw her in the river. It was just a number of months before the money was found. The dredge would have had to operate in that interval. Also, she limited herself to a small number of bills. which makes it less likely. Cooper had a lot of bills. Makes it more likely to find them post dredging. I think Duane threw Jo in the river. Somehow she made it out.