smokin99

WRONG. The early version recorded on metal foil on which overwriting was impossible. Attached is from the NTSB document Smokin provided link to. I believe this is the unit. also shows how it records and the time limits. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlY5W7be5jU I think the Sunstrand was mentioned in the document. That was interesting. ...thanks Edited to correct the name of DFR - I was listening to the next video on the Fairchild digital dfr when I posted this....

You might be right. But just to clarify my source regarding the DFR (not the CFR)....... The historical information was based on the NTSB document "Flight Data Recorder Readout Experience in Aircraft Accident Investigations 1960 - 1973 (June)" that was presented in early 1974 and 75 references the following: An excerpt.... "During those 14 years [1960 - 1973], most air carriers have used electromechanical flight data recorders which employed metal foil as the recording medium. Permanent traces are scribed mechanically. Recording is continuous from the start of the takeoff roll to the end of the landing roll. The following parameters are recorded: Pressure altitude, indicated airspeed, magnetic heading, and vertical acceleration against a base of elapsed time." This NTSB document also gives the history of the statutory requirements /regulations and mentions that the tapes were to be run for the full flight, and readout data was to be retained for 60 days (there were exceptions for testing purposes). The report also outlined soon to come requirements for DFDRs and expanded parameters. The report also gave examples of the FDRs on the market then as well as their specs and descriptions (Example: 200 hours on one, 400 on another - though you could turn that one over and record on the other side, "engraving on metal foil", "one-time use"). Also interesting -- The report gave specs on the DFDRS (expanded parameters) that were soon to come out. They must have already been in use in some measure though because four DFDRS were presented for readouts from the time frame, but not included in the stats since they were read out at the manufacturer's - the government did not have the readout equipment for digital FDRs until 1974. I'm sure it's a most likely a moot point anyway since the possibility of obtaining any data from 1971 would likely be nil and/or of limited use if it was done.

Well, apparently the site does not want to play nice. The title is "Flight Data Recorder readout Experience in Aircraft Accident Investigations 1960 - 1973". It is an NTSB document. It gives a very good history of the regs, the current (then) FDRs and the features of the new DFDRs before it gets into the body of the report. Also had the current (then) regulations and upcoming ones with a copy of the fed register code that related to the new requirements. Here's another site with a copy ..... Google site https://www.google.com/search?q=flight+data+recorder+readout+experince+1960-1973&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb Or direct to download....... http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Flibraryonline.erau.edu%2Fonline-full-text%2Fntsb%2Faviation-special-studies%2FAAS75-01.pdf&ei=30LSUu6jCpLgsASukoDgCw&usg=AFQjCNH09IYmuwgluL3eOZ64A6o262mwcg&bvm=bv.59026428,d.cWc&cad=rja but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

That might be a bit large for my needs. I'm trying to match scale on the drawn flight path and dropzone map without losing resolution and to try to overlay that on a regular atlas/street map. We'll see how it goes. But the offer is appreciated. I'm definitely into the whole preserving energy and non-wheel reinventing thing lately. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Long document, but actually kind of interesting..... http://prcarc1.erau.edu/awweb/main.jsp?flag=browse&smd=1&awdid=150 but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

yes but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Hi, Hominid. you are correct, I gave the link to the voice recorder, but it's appears both are on a loop? "All airliners are required to carry flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders that run on a loop, preserving all flight parameters and conversation for short periods of time, usually one to several hours." could they record that long in the 70's? Yes. Just looking at one brand in the document - lasted for 200 hours, but it was only good for one use, so it couldn't loop. The data was engraved (for want of a better word) on metallic tape. If I can find the document I will link it. It is too large to post. It was a study that was done on the benefits, effectiveness, failure rates, etc on the DFRs used right before the time they were to begin requiring digital DFRs. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Read carefully: "... The positions were determined by computations, by the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron, using the coordinates and associated time stamps obtained from the Mt. Hebo site, plus the surveyed location of the Mt. Hebo site and the earth model of the time. The 84th still has a detachment at McChord and doing such analyses was and remains part of their official function. The McChord Direction Center, as opposed to the 84th Eval Sq., used the SAGE system in their normal function of tracking practically everything airborn but did not, stress did not engage in the analysis work of the 84th squadron. They did not analyze the system or data from the system. The original plots came from the 84th." How this analysis work was disseminated, to whom and in what order, is another subject. It must be obvious at this point that the FBI turned to MCChord early, as distinct from NWA, for help in important phases of the hijacking. As I first said when I originally joined this thread, "my interests are historical and concern evidence in the case" ...., as opposed to suspects. (source: Interviews with former members of the 84th and 25th NORAD HQ at McChord Field) Mine too, Georger. I don't have a suspect. There is a document, prepared by someone at NWA, name redacted, that outlined the basis for the dropzone calculations for a potential search field. I believe I mentioned that the radar data was one parameter they used. It did not specify who analyzed the radar data. But it was a Northwest document. But to your point and to further my own, to get the calculations for a dropzone, they first had to have a valid path, right....? My primary point of the post is not to challenge anyone's theory of the flight path, but rather to understand why - if one disagrees with the flight path as prepared by the guys with the slide rules, what is that based on? Several things have already been mentioned by R99 that make sense - the extra marks and the fact that the crew would not overfly a major city for safety reasons. (I'm paraphrasing here). Then there's the money. Just trying to understand the rationale behind an alternate path so I can look at the evidence with that knowledge in hand.

I know that's what has been said on here, but from what I read it looked like the requirements at that time were that the recorder had to record the entire flight and there was a retention period of 60 days. ?? "In September 1959, these regulations were revised to establish a retention period of 60 days for records and to clarify the time period that the flight recorder must be in operation, that is, continuously during flight, from the beginning of the takeoff roll until the end of the landing roll. These requirements, together with subsequent amendments to the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR), resulted in the recording of flight records continuously during flight of all turbine powered transport category aircraft operated by air carriers of United States registry. (See Appendix A.)" but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

You might be right - I could not get a great resolution and couldn't find a magnifying glass. And though the two flight paths might be the same - I haven't checked that closely yet - but I was not looking at the one with the pins. I was looking at this one below in comparison with the LINE c-d-e-s on jumpzone attached. But I didn't try to overlay them. I was going off of a couple of landmarks and measurements, and the resolution is not so great so I could be wrong. It happens occasionally.

Yes. I can see that on the hig res copies. The random lines that I was talking about were what you drew on the jumpzone map and called power lines. I just can't make out those lines on the original jumpzone document. But I can make out those details on the color copy and now the copy that Georger posted. So all is good. Thanks but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Do we know if they used the data flight recorder to get any of the flight data for the flight path? They didn't specifically mention that in the dropzone map document. I read that digital data flight recorders with expanded parameters were developed and in scant use in early 70s, but not required until maybe 72 or 74? --but the oscillographic ones that recorded airspeed, altitude, direction, vertical accelerations and time were required to run during entire flight since the late 50s. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

You might be right - I could not get a great resolution and couldn't find a magnifying glass. And though the two flight paths might be the same - I haven't checked that closely yet - but I was not looking at the one with the pins. I was looking at this one below in comparison with the LINE c-d-e-s on jumpzone attached. But I didn't try to overlay them. I was going off of a couple of landmarks and measurements, and the resolution is not so great so I could be wrong. It happens occasionally.

You might be right - I could not get a great resolution and couldn't find a magnifying glass. And though the two flight paths might be the same - I haven't checked that closely yet - but I was not looking at the one with the pins. I was looking at this one below in comparison with the LINE c-d-e-s on jumpzone attached. But I didn't try to overlay them. I was going off of a couple of landmarks and measurements, and the resolution is not so great so I could be wrong. It happens occasionally.

You might be right - I could not get a great resolution and couldn't find a magnifying glass. And though the two flight paths might be the same - I haven't checked that closely yet - but I was not looking at the one with the pins. I was looking at this one below in comparison with the LINE c-d-e-s on jumpzone attached. But I didn't try to overlay them. I was going off of a couple of landmarks and measurements, and the resolution is not so great so I could be wrong. It happens occasionally.

First, I have to congratulate the Seattle Seahawks for winning their NFC Divisional playoff game against the New Orleans Saints. You have to give it to the Saints for spirit, though. They never gave up, they kept trying until the last minute. I give them kudos on this, since Seattle is a tough venue. Your questions are legitimate, Smokin' 99. There IS a question on the flight path, and Cooper's actual DZ as well. I personally believe a great deal of that DZ is based on the point where 305's flight engineer saw the indicator light for the airstairs flash off, and then on again for good during the flight to Reno. That exact moment is in dispute, and can probably only be narrowed to a window of a couple of minutes. One person I trust in this whole thing is Paul Soderlind and his team at NWA. Soderlind was no dummy, and remember that NWA had some amount of time to prepare, to set up, while 305 was on the ground in Seattle. We're talking 1971 technology here, and a situation coming on Thanksgiving Eve that no one expected. I think everyone did the best they could, and if anyone with NWA went on the record they did the same thing. Sometimes things really ARE as simple as they appear. No body, no briefcase, no parachutes, no money except miles from V23, and that includes MORE than one bundle of the cash. This lessens the odds that it arrived there naturally. Before any of these questions can be settled, the Seattle FBI (in my humble opinion) should establish the parameters on why they believe the 'official' flight path is correct, whatever it is. But really, that logic could just as easily go towards him landing at the bottom of a body of water or in a tangle of thickets to be eaten by bears. Same goes for the money - it could have started out all together and then scattered by the elements. Or maybe we don't really know the real story of how it was found. I'm really just wanting to discuss reasons the flight path is not reasonable. I believe there has been too much time and too many people on the case for the FBI to know now where anything came from. At the time this all started I'm sure they never dreamed it would remain unsolved so I doubt they took critical notes and such. As to the dropzone, it was not based on one element of the flight. It was based on analysis of the radar and the recorded communication relative to the pressure fluctuation, the time correlation from the radar and recorded info, wind information, free-fall trajectories, airplane speed and altitude. And they gave themselves easement on either side for time and position. But, again, all of this is ultimately dependent on a good flight path. And so my same concerns - the path on the dropzone looks different than the one on the flightpath document. So which one do you go with? But I doubt seriously at this point that the FBI would know how to resolve that without the radar data - which, I believe, their spokesperson has said in the past that they don't have. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Maybe, for once, we could just hypothesize and discuss without someone having to be the winner. I'd kind of like to try to understand something before I try to challenge it. Here are some thoughts and questions on the issue of the flight path - some have been brought up before by others...... and some questions for R99 or whoever else wants to discuss.. 1. This is just my personal opinion based on stuff I've read, but I don't think the FBI had anything to do with coming up with the flight path or the dropzone. Why would they - it's not their area of expertise?.. 2. We don't know if the one we are referring to is the true flight path that NW/FAA gave the FBI. Is this the final product or draft 1, 2, or 3? There are other plotted areas (red x) on there, so that in itself is confusing. Additionally if I understand correctly, there are points on it that don't jive with the times that we do know (assuming moderately constant speeds), but could that be because we don't have enough data points to verify the flight path -- versus that the path is essentially non-flyable (as written in the time period specified)? 3. The document laying out the basis for the presumed jump zone/search area is full of words like probable and assume and plus/minus communication tolerances of 1 min and plus/minus .5 on the radar -- so there's that. (Though they include the outermost limits in the jumpzone, the immediate search area was based on assumptions that did not include the possible deviations.) 4. I understand the need for something tangible, but to include the placard as a reference point, you have to presume that the placard was found where it fell. 5. If those red marks do mean anything and the flight path and drop point is to the west -- I'm no expert on wind drift or flight paths or drop zones -- but it looks to me that the money could end up at Tena Bar without human intervention and not necessarily require a direct overfly of Tena bar. 6. Even allowing for a different size grid, it doesn't appear that the plane's path on the flight path document correlates with the ground track C-D-E-S line on the dropzone map. So there's that. (As in....who you gonna trust) So now question time for those who do not trust the flight path as we know it.... Is there any other basis for not going with the flight path other than the times not matching up with the data and the belief that they would not have flown over Vancouver/Portland? If you would go around Vancouver/Portland, why would one assume that they would go west and not east when their destination was in an easterly direction? Is it related to the altitude that they had to maintain? What about flights into and out of PDX while 305 was in that area - I can't remember the status of that? Thanks but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Thought this NWA history newsletter was a good read. It's about hijackings, of course, primarily NW174 in 1968 ...some good pictures of the crew. One picture of passengers disembarking shows a guy in a white shirt, black tie, sunglasses and a briefcase....could it be....

Interesting interview with the author of "The Skies Belong to US: Love and Terror in the Golden Age of Hijacking" Transcript begins about 1/4 of the way down. http://tristatesradio.com/post/booking-flight-golden-age-hijacking but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Ok, Smokin, I'm stumped...Who is "east/west"? Not sure if they were on here... I would have to check back...but on other forums...there used to be two posters named East Coast and West Coast. Don't remember who east coast was or if he was one of the two mentioned in the segment below - but west coast, I'm pretty sure, was Dan Dvorak (spelling might be off) or Matthew Myers. One died? and not sure if the other is still in the DB game. Their theory was that Ted Mayfield did it. (Disclaimer - The above gives a general idea, but I would have to check back on all of the specifics - it's been a while) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw6bXxqaq0s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZQhUUjIXEo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URpMaQ3WVj4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dat-UPEB15M http://n467us.com/I%20Am%20D%20B%20Cooper.html East Coast (Daniel Dvorak) and West Coast (Mathew Myers). They discovered that one Ted Mayfield had called Himmelsbach during the Cooper hijacking and turned this into a phantastical case against Mayfield, still alive in WA. Their claims against Ted Mayfield were almost as slanderous and libelous as Blevins' claims and statements against Geestman etal! Mayfield was the Mayor of his community at the time! They stirred up a lot of trouble, claimed a working relationship with Himmelsbach which was never true, went public on KOIN-TV naming Ted Mayfield as DB Cooper, and Dvorak suddenly died in a traffic accident (speeding) ending the pair's career abruptly. Myers used to post here from time to time - Snowmman had a running relationship online with the pair. All of this occurred just prior to this thread being opened and becoming 'popular'. Ckret was never involved in the Myers- Dvorak debacle. Which reminds me....I ran a search on Sheridan Peterson not too long ago to see if he's posted anything anywhere and I saw this. [inline dropzoneghouls.jpg] but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Excellent! Perhaps more of the "original evidence" will become available when the correct, but presently unknown, stars have aligned. Keep the faith and stay tuned! Robert99 For what it's worth...you aero guys won't need it, but if you're like me - I love maps, but I had never looked at a flight map except in connection with this case - links on this google search page can be helpful in explaining the basic symbols and such of what you are looking at.... I used the first one, but you can take your pick :) https://www.google.com/search?q=flight+map+legend&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Jo...if you had been writing posts as succinct (relatively speaking) and rational sounding as the one above all these years, you would never have received so much grief ...and you might have solved your own little Duane Weber mystery by now. I'm not sure if I can subscribe to the conspiracy theory (though it is highly possible that such things could happen, I just have a problem with believing people can keep secrets that long - though that is also a generalization that I could probably disprove if so inclined) But your post is something to think about and the points you made above are valid -- especially the ones that I went back and bolded..... I enjoyed your post, Jo but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Ok, Smokin, I'm stumped...Who is "east/west"? Not sure if they were on here... I would have to check back...but on other forums...there used to be two posters named East Coast and West Coast. Don't remember who east coast was or if he was one of the two mentioned in the segment below - but west coast, I'm pretty sure, was Dan Dvorak (spelling might be off) or Matthew Myers. One died? and not sure if the other is still in the DB game. Their theory was that Ted Mayfield did it. (Disclaimer - The above gives a general idea, but I would have to check back on all of the specifics - it's been a while) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw6bXxqaq0s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZQhUUjIXEo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URpMaQ3WVj4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dat-UPEB15M but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

I'm thinking - not just KC - but confessions by anyone is just not going to do it. Especially confessions by friends, family members, or partners in crime who were not on the plane. And even more especially if other things simply do not match up. On second thought, there might be one or two confessions that I can think of that would possibly turn the page - but that's not likely to happen and even those would also probably need to be buttressed by tangible evidence - since both have their own hurdle(s) that must be jumped over. By report, the FBI's had had many confessions. At this late date, seems like it's got to be fingerprints, dna, a body, a chute, a bag, a twenty - aka something they can hold, examine, and draw a conclusion from. Nothing said by anyone. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Slightly off-topic but .... Maybe Cooper will be found through a random stroke of luck like..... Mr. Aubrey Lee Price, --the very bad banker who stole millions from his bank and bilked investors in some scheme, -- who faked his death but made the massive mistake of confessing to his crimes for the suicide to be believed -- (which it was - at least a judge declared him legally dead but the FBI says they never bought it), -- changed his appearance, -- has been hiding out in points unknown and Ocala, Fl where he was playing farmer to about 200 pot plants in a rented mobile home, was arrested after 18 months on the lam upon being stopped in GA......... because the tint on his windows was too dark. And why was he in Georgia you ask?....To renew the tag on his truck. Wendy Cross, who invested with Price told reporters, "Justice prevails and the big foot of karma will come back and squash you." How about the even bigger foot of stupidity?