Robert99

Blevins, The paper bag mystery is of little consequence. He either threw it out or took it with him. What was in it? No one is going to find out at this point. On the Sky Chef matter. Sky Chef prepared inflight meals. In the 1960s and early 1970s, a small package of four cigarettes was routinely included with dinner service. The cigarettes were packaged by their manufacturer. However, I don't remember ever seeing matches prepared by a cigarette company. So it would be natural for Sky Chef to also provide matches just as it was natural for Sky Chef to provide napkins with their meals. It would also be natural for Sky Chef to provide matches for people who had their own cigarettes and just needed a light. It is very likely that Sky Chef included extra matches which were given to the FAs for just such people. Maybe Cooper had flown within the previous day, had a meal onboard, and saved the matches and cigarettes. Or maybe a non-smoking passenger had given him theirs and he also saved them. Didn't he smoke exactly eight cigarettes? Flight 305 probably had a meal served somewhere between Minneapolis and Portland. So maybe the matches and cigarettes were already onboard at Portland.

Hominid, Several people on this thread have been unable to determine the exact flight instrumention that was installed on NWA N467US, Boeing 727-051 model, which was delivered in early 1965. However, it appears to have been just basic instrumentation including a RMI, HSI, and a state-of-the-art Attitude Indicator which did not have any Flight Director capabilities. If you run across the precise NWA 727 instrumentation please post it to this thread.

Do you have any thoughts as to the reason for the difference? Maybe 70 isn't old enough? At 70+ I do have a few years on you. And by a very wierd coincidence, I have another birthday coming up next Thanksgiving day. That will be the 40th anniversary of what?

Hominid, I don't want to pile on but I am quite a bit older than you and Farflung has never insulted me.

And what precisely do you want the money to show? What should it show? What would be nice to have it show? Compared with the placard... The money is what it is = Cooper money for sure, but the controversy of where it spent the 1971-80 years is still up for grabs. Did Kaye do credible tests on the spectro scale? I don't know. Did Kaye have a large enough sample or was he able to compare the small number of FBI bills with the much larger distribution of the rest of the bills to isolate contamination issues at that point? I don't know. I looked at high resolution images of the money Brian Ingram was auctioning off. I am a WHUFFO but I see oxidation, bug and/or bacteria damage. I'd really like to know what Tom Kaye saw in the spectro analysis. I do not know what the placard can tell us. Just be patient a bit longer, keep the faith, and your questions will be answered.

Jerry, Has Ralph offered an opinion as to what caused the Reno accident?

377, The elevator trim tab breaking off would not cause the aircraft to pull 21Gs, and the the wing spar and everything else would have failed long before things got past about 10-12Gs. Did you see the pictures where the tail wheel was not retracted? Also, the cockpit was clearly visible in some of the pictures and there was no sign of the pilot. I'll wait for the report from the investigators but I'll bet there were several problems that figured into the accident.

The pressure is basically the "static" pressure. The actual would be only a tiny bit less because of a slight vacuum being pulled by the airflow past the back. I think I have calculated the static pressure, but it's readily available and easily calculated. R99 I'm sure has done it. You can make it pretty accurated by accounting for the -12C°, almost 100% R.H. and the fact that the S.L. normalized atmospheric pressure in the area was a bit above "standard." But, the pressure is really not relevant. Reason: The guage of significance was the cabin rate of climb guage (like the transcript says). For normal rates of pressure change in the cabin, this guage responds proportional to pressure change rate. In effect, a differentiator. Basically, it is a very sensitive anaeroid barometer with a tiny (but calibrated) hole in the bellows. The pressure inside is constantly trying to adjust to the pressure outside. It responds big time to any sudden change because it doesn't have time enough to adjust in the midst of the change. Because of the normal decay and delay time, you can calculate just how sensitive it is in comparison to the cabin pressure guage. I don't remember the exact ratio, but its probably at least two orders of magnitude. So, no matter what the atmospheric pressure (for normal earthly use), suddenly increase the pressure 5% and the guage will give the same BANG. It could easily be like peggin electrical meters with to-big inputs.Quote Hominid, You are correct about the cabin pressure (or altitude) gage being the only one of interest in the stair opening/closing issue. The flight instruments for the pilots operate off independent static/dynamic pressure systems that have nothing to do with the cabin pressure. A couple of years ago I did do an analysis of the atmospheric DENSITY in the Portland area at the time the airliner was passing through. The only result was that the DENSITY was about 2 percent above the standard density for a 1966 Standard US Atmosphere. At the relatively low speed at which the airliner was traveling, and the fact that the cabin pressure was only affected by the rear stairs being opened, the cabin pressure can be assumed to be about the same as the ambient pressure. Or to put it another way, the cabin absolute pressure (or altitude) would be about the same as the altitude indicated on the pilots altimeters corrected for the above standard sea level pressure that those altimeters were set to. About a month ago, 377 had some very interesting posts on this thread about his experiences in jumping out of the rear stairway (with the stairs removed) of DC-9s. 377 said that he could feel and hear pressure variations and noises ever time a skydiver went out that door. Perhaps 377 is the one to talk to about this "bumping and thumping".

Jo, Just solve the damn Cooper case and get it over with! Then I for one can get on to more serious matters like searching for Amelia.

And why do you assume that "he" was Cooper? The (GC) was often "Al" because the person hearing the comms couldn't always tell who he was hearing. The "(GC)" was Al telling someone else around there (like ARTCC) that "he" the pilot wanted to get up. Nobody said who "he" was. Like, "the guy in back." (source: Hominid) They probably did level off because Coop wanted to get the stairs down. That doesn't mean he requested it. It's very likely the crew just wanted to be able to concentrate on that little chore. I'll try to figure out what the rest means and get back to ya. I think there are two "he's". I think in the first instance one GC is talking to another referring to the pilot. One "Ground Control says NW 305 wants to go to altitude as fast as "he" can. Immediately afterwards (on the pdf) another GC replies okay. The next "he" is 305 referring to Cooper as in "he wants the steps down" That's my assumption

I'm inclined right now to think they had to turn the hydraulics off. Reason: Coming into Reno 305 said they needed to make a wide sweeping turn. I haven't checked it, but I don't believe their speed would have been low enough that the bank would have dropped lift enough to put them near stall speed (in a near empty condition). Maybe R99 will check that out. Hominid, Welcome to the Cooper thread. One of your earlier comments was something along the line that you were one of the original geeks and nerds. This may be true or it may be a false claim. But before I take offense, exactly how many years have you been a nerd? Now down to business. On the matter of the weight of the aircraft when it landed in Reno. In Seattle, all the cargo stayed onboard. The passengers and two FAs were released but their luggage stayed on board, except for one passenger who reboarded the aircraft to get his briefcase. The airplane apparently did not have a full load of fuel but was close to having a full fuel load. The airliner took off from Seattle at between 7:30 and 7:35 PM PST and landed about 11:00 PM PST in Reno. Presumably, it would have had at least 30 to 45 minutes of fuel on board when it landed since the flight crew did not indicate any concerns with their fuel situation. So the fuel load was decreased by the approximate 3:30 hours of flying and Cooper's jump decreased the weight by another 225 to 250 pounds. When the airliner was about 17 DME miles south of Seattle, they told the controller that they were leveling off momentairly because Cooper was having trouble getting the stairs down. And they slowed down the aircraft for a couple of minutes to help Cooper. If my memory is correct, they also stated that they were having trouble climbing with the stairs down and the flap and landing gear configuration that they had. Other than that, there is nothing in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts to indicate that they were having trouble controlling the aircraft. However, when the airliner got into the Okland ATC area, the Oakland controller told the flight crew something like "I understand that you can not make a standard rate turn (that would be a two minute turn)". The flight crew confirmed that they could not make such a turn. During subsequent exchanges, the flight crew indicated that they were having trouble descending and said that they would prefer a 300 FPM descent with 500 FPM at the outside. They also indicated that they would need plenty of time to get things set up for the Reno landing. On the approach to the runway in Reno, the crew decided that they could not descend fast enough and made a 360 degree turn in order to get into a better position for landing. And then they landed. The Oakland controller is the one who initiated the discussion about their turning and descent problems. This means that someone called him and told him of the problem but there is no record of this in the transcripts. From other sources, maybe the FBI notes, I understand that Al called Reno and told them what to expect when the aircraft landed there. So maybe it was Al or the Seattle controllers who passed the word about the control problems to the Oakland controller. The target airspeed throughout the flight seems to have been 170 KIAS, which was their best range speed for that particular configuration. R99

Art Inmates Life - you are talking in code and I am READING you. Go Ahead! Let it Blow! I am Ready! TO ALL:

Jo, Your "CODE" is pure baloney and you have been told that by people on this thread. You are now claiming that you have not seen the letter that included the numbers you claim are code? Didn't you or maybe some else post that letter to this thread?

Robert Stated: Jo SMILES!

Jo, Were you the one who made the offer?

Jo, You are the one trying to replace facts with myths! According to an entry at 10:35 PM PST in the Oakland Center's radio transcripts, Captain Scott tells the Reno tower controller that they are trying to contact Cooper to get the steps up. Earlier they had informed Cooper (or at least tried to) that damage to the stairs in landing at Reno might mean that they couldn't takeoff from there. No sparks were seen in the landing at Reno. As the aircraft was taxiing to the ramp, the tower did see some sparks from the stairs dragging on the taxiway and reported this to the flight crew at 11:03PM PST. The damage caused by the stairs dragging on the taxiway was very minor as can be seen from the photograph on Sluggo's web page. You apparently consider the "journalists" to be better witnesses than the Reno tower controllers. Again, you are the one who has been interested only in "useless Trivia" and continually ignore eyewitness accounts such as the Reno tower controllers. And you continue to try to bury Cooper in so much Duane garbage in an apparent effort to prevent Cooper from being found. Get real!

Orange, I think you and Occam are both right on this point.

If I interpret this correctly one result would be far more communication and direct action (by some means) between Cooper and the cockpit possibly thru Tina? None of this interplay is made explicit in the transcripts. Gray's book develops some of it - We know he got out of the plane, by some means. We also know a reporter on the scene at Reno reported 'some damage' to the air stairs after landing - whether this damage is consistent with Homonid's speculation is uncertain ? Does it follow, that getting the door open and stairs down relied more on the crew than on Cooper or Cooper's knowledge or skills personally than previously thought - because we know Cooper had trouble and we now know crew intervention was required. ? A couple of dumb questions. With the above scenario, what light (if any) on the Flight Engineer's panel would illuminate (as was claimed by the flight crew) when the stairway slammed shut momentarily after Cooper jumped? In the FBI re-enactment using the very same airplane, how did they put the stairway down and did the same light on the FE's panel illuminate when they dropped the weights and the door reportedly slammed shut just as it did when Cooper jumped? An additional question for bonus points. Does the flight crew and/or the FBI have some further explaining to do on this matter?

Are you going to the Portland or Ariel gatherings? As of this moment, I don't have any plans to do so. As you know, I had hoped to pay another visit to that area this past summer but a couple of distractions (one was the fire and the other is a possible health matter) got things out of synch. But I would like to talk to Richard Fazio for a few minutes so maybe all things are still possible. And who knows, maybe I could then make a more leisurely trip there for a few days next summer.

What drugs are you on! ? John Peters "Johnny" Ringo (May 3, 1850 – July 13, 1882) was an outlaw Cowboy of the American Old West who was affiliated with Ike Clanton and Frank Stilwell in Cochise County, Arizona Territory during 1881-1882. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Ringo Johnny Ringo an outlaw? No way! But of course everyone in Tombstone in the 1880s could be called an outlaw. Johnny Ringo, the blogger, has never answered my question if he runs the bar with his name in Tombstone. That bar is about 21 miles from my driveway. But it is only 20 miles from here to the O.K. Corral where a famous gunfight took place in the 1880s which has since become a Hollywood fairey tale. Never been there. Wasnt Ringo part of the Clanton gang that the Erps took down, or is that another 4 Monsters Abreast tale? People south of here argue over whether Jessie James even existed ? Tombstone was a law unto itself in its "golden age". Everybody was gunning for everyone else and Johnny Ringo and the Earps and Doc Holliday did have "issues". But they were all basically cast from the same mold. They were all gun fighters. Ringo may, or may not, have shot himself or then maybe someone else shot him. There are several versions of how he met his end maybe none or all of the versions are correct. The true story of what went on in Tombstone in the 1880s could be very elusive. After the gun fight at the O.K. Corral, the Earps were initially charged with murder but justice was a matter of interpretation and they ended up being run out of town. But before they got out of town, one of the Earp brothers was murdered. And the Earps replied in kind to the suspected culprits. Somewhere around 1900, a fellow named Earp who was a close relative of the Tombstone Earps was killed after a "misunderstanding" in a card game at a saloon in Willcox. No one was ever charged in that matter. Today, there are sometimes gatherings of the Earps and Clanton descendants, obviously at different times, in Tombstone. Who were the good guys and who were the bad guys is a matter for you to decide.

What drugs are you on! ? John Peters "Johnny" Ringo (May 3, 1850 – July 13, 1882) was an outlaw Cowboy of the American Old West who was affiliated with Ike Clanton and Frank Stilwell in Cochise County, Arizona Territory during 1881-1882. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Ringo Johnny Ringo an outlaw? No way! But of course everyone in Tombstone in the 1880s could be called an outlaw. Johnny Ringo, the blogger, has never answered my question if he runs the bar with his name in Tombstone. That bar is about 21 miles from my driveway. But it is only 20 miles from here to the O.K. Corral where a famous gunfight took place in the 1880s which has since become a Hollywood fairey tale.

Those really are "Superpeople"!

Jo, It was the FBI personnel who dug up several areas near Brian Ingram's find and found the money fragments 2 or 3 feet down.

Blevins, Let me say first that you and I actually agree on something. Apples grown in the Yakima area and other areas close by are very good indeed. Also, I agree that everyone on this thread is entitled to their own opinions, humble or otherwise. Blevins writes: The available evidence IMHO shows that Flight 305 was EAST of the Interstate 5 freeway while zipping along on its way to Portland, and then Reno. RN99 replies: If the hijacked airliner was on the centerline of V-23 during its flight thru the Portland area, then it would have been east of I-5. However, even on the FBI maps, there are indications that the airliner was west of the V-23 centerline for considerable distances. And there are other reasons for believing that the airliner passed west of Portland to avoid the possibility of being blown up over the city. That would put it west of I-5 for quite a few miles. Blevins writes: Two feet deep in sand is NOT that deep. Sand along riverbanks also has a habit of shifting around a bit due to the heavy Northwest rains and occasional windstorms. So there is no way to truly tell how deep the money was originally buried. RN99 replies: Are you suggesting that some money was buried under only two inches of sand while other money was buried under two feet of sand just a few feet away and essentially at the same elevation above the river? Incidentally, I do have some experience with how sand is influenced by flowing rivers including the Columbia (actually, it was mainly experience in a river that flowed into the Columbia a few miles later). Blevins writes: I believe Tom Kaye hit on something with his simple fan test and by discovering that the numbers on the bills were still aligned, even to the point that the ink from those numbers bled into each other perfectly. This does NOT point to the money being washed around anywhere from anywhere else. RN99 replies: Are you suggesting that the money arrived, by unknown means, at Tina Bar on the evening of the hijacking and has been there ever since? Blevins writes: It's even possible that some OTHER kid (besides Brian Ingram) on that Tena Bar beach found the money first and playfully buried it in the sand. Who knows? RN99 replies: You are kidding aren't you?

NO NO NO. Too many thing point to the fact the MONEY was on that beach FOR LESS THAN a YR, There is NO proof the money was every in the water for any lenght of time. That money was planted and there was more planted, but never found. After all of these yrs - I actually believe right across from the PDX - Duane buried money along the shoreline. In 2001 there were 4 new homes built there...I did NOT go to the second site due to time, but I was told it was very similar to the place Duane went down to the river the first time. We made 4 stops and I believe Duane made 3 deposits. What brought you to that decision? Perhaps speculation, but not facts. Sounds like you are following the Cook theory. Yes there was a landing EAST of I-5 - and I would put my life on the line on this! Jo, How long had the fragments of money that were found under two FEET of sand been there? How long had the bills that were found under two INCHES of sand been there? For starters, I would suggest different lengths of time. And that means that the money deposition at Tina Bar was a repeatable event. So you are now claiming that Duane buried money at three different locations including near the Portland Airport. The last I remember, you were only claiming that Duane threw a paper sack, contents unknown, into the Columbia River. I have not read anything by Cook (Galen Cook?) and have no idea what his theory may be. Jo, If you are betting your life on a landing east of I-5, then I would suggest that you get your affairs in order.