Robert99

Not entirely a good thing according to my friend who worked on World AIrways and United 727 maintenance. Cabin smoke was a useful marker for pressure leaks. Light brown stains gave the workers a big head start on finding and patching them. He also told me an amusing story that United had calculated what areas of their planes were closely visible to boarding passengers and had "appearance zone maps" for the maintenance workers. Dents, scratches, chipped paint was repaired quickly in those "appearance zone" areas, but not in others. 377 A long time ago in another life, an individual I happened to be acquainted with made a tour of several airlines to discuss what they looked for in new aircraft before buying them. It turned out that their number one consideration was that the aircraft had to look good (i.e., "appearance") to their customers. Such things as performance were not even a primary consideration. It was all in the eye of the beholder. So your friend from United was undoubtedly speaking the truth.

Surely you have learnt by now that Gray's book is hardly the most trustworthy of references??? I have to wonder about the whole issue of matchbooks on an airplane, smoking, ashtrays, matchbooks in ashtrays, etc back in the 70s? Oxy rich environment and all that? Evidently smoking was allowed. No smoking during takeoffs and landings - I do remember that. Up until at least the mid-1960s, a small packet of four cigarettes, plus matches, were routinely included with ever dinner served on most airlines. Then somewhere around 1965, the Surgeon General started requiring warning labels on cigarette packages and the airlines started phasing out the complimentary cigarettes but smoking was still permitted. Sky Chef probably continued to provide complimentary match books to the airlines as long as smoking was permitted on their planes. But most passengers probably had never breathed decent air on an airliner until smoking was completely banned. Cleaning the nicotene out of the air pressurization system was a long standing problem for the airlines.

Or did they ckeck on recent previous passengers seated in that area to see if they lost a tie? I know they clean up between flights - but unless they were a lot more fastidious in their cleaning in 1971 than now that's not saying much.

The screen locked as the ‘Amazing Farflungini’ yelled for "Silence". This was as he made his amazing and insightful prediction. Locking a screen is an added feature of high speed internet and the powers it gives us over dial-up users. Well worth the $10.00 a month difference in price. Jo, Take Vicki's advice and check into getting better Internet service. You might start by checking with your present provider (AOL). If that doesn't work, try checking your local phone book, and you might even take a look at your Sunday (today's) newspaper for special discounts on high speed Internet service. High speed Internet service is provided by some phone companies through your land line phone, by cable TV providers through the same cable as you receive the TV reception, through satellite TV companies, and by Wi-Fi companies that don't require any physical connection to your house. There is no excuse for your continued complaints about your dial-up service. Just do it! In fact, AOL would probably be happy to get another dial-up customer out of their system and into the modern age.

The PDX tower and approach and departure controllers would not have been involved in the flight from Seattle to Reno. The airliner would only have talked to Seattle ATC sector controllers as it passed through the Portland area. The airliner was also in contact with the performance group at the NWA headquarters in Minneapolis through the ARINC radio system.

Thanks Farflung. We've long needed a written protocol for Cooper "science" and now we have it. Man do I wish Snowmman could join the dredge discussion. He dug pretty deep on that subject. 377 I forgot to mention earlier that recent exchanges with Snowman indicate that he supports a dredging theory. But he and "I agree to disagree" on that point.

Perhaps Jerry Thomas can elaborate on this, but my understanding is that the bundles are basically what Ingram found when he was digging the fire pit. The additional searching and digging by the FBI found additional bill "fragments" with some of them being in the water and on top of the sand and others reportedly being buried up to two or three feet under the sand. It is these fragments at different depths that leads me to believe that the money deposition was a repeatable event that took place over a period of time.

Jerry, First let's discuss the speed of the Columbia River flow from Portland to the Pacific. It is almost exactly 100 statute miles from the Portland area to the Pacific. The water level along that distance decreases by approximately one foot per 10 miles of distance. For comparison, the Mississippi River water level decreases by approximately one foot per mile along its entire distance. For further comparison, in the state where I live, it is not at all uncommon to have streams and (usually dry) rivers that descend 15 or more feet per mile. During high water periods, these streams and rivers can and do move boulders weighing a ton or more. They have taken down Interstate Highway bridges in less than five minutes. In short, they can and do rearrange the landscape. Where did this 15-25 MPH number come from? Surely you don't intend to say that the Columbia River travels at that speed between Portland and the Pacific. If that were the case, all those tugboats and barges heading downstream through the Bonneville Dam lock would end up in the Pacific with no chance of ever getting back upstream of the Bonneville Dam. Do you know how many rubber bands were on each packet of money? Was it two or more? Any number of scenarios can be postulated about how the money actually got to Tina Bar. But there is no actual "proof" that any of those scenarios are correct. About the only thing that can be said is that the money was deposited at Tina Bar by natural means, at least this seems to be the general consensus of opinion now. Additionally, it can be said with some degree of confidence that the money had not been underwater during the entire eight years it was missing. Also, that it had not been exposed to a great amount of violence. But the details of all of the above is a matter of opinion. You have yours and I have mine. Neither opinion can be proven correct at this point.

Thanks Farflung. We've long needed a written protocol for Cooper "science" and now we have it. Man do I wish Snowmman could join the dredge discussion. He dug pretty deep on that subject. 377 377 and Farflung, Feel free to work up a protocol for Cooper "science". It is sadly missing from this whole matter. I would like to suggest a good place to start. Ask the FBI for their "proof" that Cooper jumped near Ariel or that the airliner even passed near Ariel. You might also ask the FBI why they removed everything, repeat everything, from the Seattle ATC radio transcripts that would help confirm the flight path of the airliner in the area of the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersectgion until it was south of Portland. It may be cheeky of me to even hint at the possibility that the radio transcripts do not support the "official" FBI position. And gross sacrilege for me to suggest that the FBI "maps" are completely erroneous as to both times and positions. This matter has been discussed both on this thread and at greater lengths elsewhere. You might include in your protocol a statement to the effect that the day to expect Cooper to walk into someone's office and throw the money bag on their desk is long past. Perhaps we could try some constructive and productive activities for once. Sitting on one's fat ass and doing nothing but pontificating is a total waste except to one's ego. I yield my soapbox. You can have a go at it.

Jerry, In my humble opinion, it is just not realistic for the Corps of Engineers, or anyone else, to expect that the money could have travelled 18+ miles in the Washougal and Columbia Rivers and then arrive at a very localized area on Tina Bar, with most of the bills still bundled with rubber bands and fragments also in a localized field, and no evidence whatsoever of the money bag. Mother Nature doesn't work that way! P.S. I'll leave the channel dredging, dam building, and such marco scale events to the Corps of Engineers. But once we get down to the micro scale events, I'm going to weigh in. P.P.S. But you and I have discussed this before.

Jerry, All of these discussions reduces to the point that the money got to Tina Bar by some natural process. You and I probably disagree on that process, but in my personal opinion it could not have come very far and was probably never far (just a few feet at most) from the east bank of the Columbia. So in my personal opinion, Cooper had to land on solid ground and probably somewhere between the NW Lower River Road and the Columbia River in an east/west direction. In a north/south direction, the money location would represent the northern most point and somewhere in the area of the flushing channel would represent the absolute southern most point. There is a possibility that he could have landed on the eastern part of Caterpillar Island. This leaves a very narrow strip of land for Cooper's landing point. And, of course, I agree with you and quite a few other people that Cooper cratered. I'm sure that a good walking inspection of that land area could narrow things down quite a bit more. Elevation wise, Cooper probably impacted in a sandy area with vegetation that had substantial roots and that was mainly only flooded during such events as the spring runoff and major storms. The vegetation could keep him in place and the flooding could expose his remains and then rebury him from time to time. As I have pointed out before, the fact that a "field" of debris from the bills, and at different levels in the sand, means that the money deposition was a repeatable event. That also means that Cooper's remains, and everything he had with him when he impacted, remained in essentially the same location during the period when the money was being deposited at Tina Bar. For the above reasons, I feel that there is still a reasonable chance that evidence of Cooper, and his impact point, can still be located.

Another thing ruling out Vancouver Lake as the source of the money is the fact that the NW Lower River Road (which forms the east boundary of the Fazio property) is built on a levee. Consequently, any thing that made it into Vancouver Lake in the early 1970s would have to exit into the Columbia several miles downstream of Tina Bar. A "flushing channel" was constructed at the southern end (upstream from Tina Bar) of Vancouver Lake somewhere around 1980. This channel has gates to allow water to enter Vancouver Lake at the upstream end but the water then has to re-enter the river several miles downstream of Tina Bar. It appears that this flushing channel can only be used during relatively high water levels in the Columbia. Other times it appears to be completly dry. Also keep in mind that the river water level is normally about 5 to 10 feet above sea level at Tina Bar even including tide effects which are about 2 feet daily. The highest point on the Fazio property is probably no more than 20 to 25 feet above sea level.

Sailshaw, Can you add to this? Otherwise, it looks like the flight crew has some explaining to do about their previous remarks.

N223FE first flew on 08-10-1974 (meaning that it just turned 37 years old), served with several airlines, was delivered to Federal Express on 07-01-1987 and is still active apparently on FE's routes in South America.

Is the picture in the upper right hand corner of your latest "Swith Lights and Knobs" for a four engine or eight engine 727? I must have forgotten some of the 727 versions.

She has been digging there during summers since 1972. She hasn't found anything yet. Maybe a metal detector could help her find a more favorable area for digging. You can never tell what kind of "clams" she might find.

Farflung, Congratulations on your still excellent eyesight.

Pek771, Excellent observations. Perhaps the money never made it into the Columbia in the first place, except when the Columbia reached flood stage. Maybe old DBC got covered by some sand, say in the winter and spring of 71/72, and then only reappeared periodically. Who knows, he might still be there today buried under sand with the roots of some bushes holding him and the equipment in place. "There" is defined as being very close to where the money was found. Would the lady in your attached picture be interested in doing some digging near Tina Bar?

Jo, You should have paid more attention to what, other than Duane, has been discussed on this thread for the past couple of years at least. Most of the issues you mention have already been covered to one degree or another.

Farflung is correct. It basically comes down to your "faith system".

Sailshaw, Thanks for the information. You are suggesting that the pressure hull door was closed during the takeoff from Seattle. Pek771 was also asking if the pressure hull door had a warning light on the Flight Engineer's panel to indicate when it is open. Do you have an answer for him?

If Cooper had trouble opening these stairs after receiving instructions from Tina and reading the placard (which didn't blow away until after the stairs were open), then Cooper's mechanical hands-on experience with a 727 may have been ZERO prior to the hijack flight. Presumably, he could have gotten the other information from "beer talk" with a knowledgeable individual. Maybe we have over-estimated Cooper's skills and background.

Farflung, Thanks.

Pek771, My guess is that there would be such a light for the pressure hull door. But I don't have any information on it.

377, Does one of your 727 manuals give the location of the controls for the aft stairs?