Robert99

Ckret's report: (The weather: Ceiling of 5,000 feet, broken clouds at 3,500, scattered clouds at 1,500. Winds of 12 to 14 knots, light rain showers. ) So where are the reports above 5000 ft? The crew report? Georger, There is some confusion in the wording as used in Ckret's report. I'll discuss that below but first I must make a disclaimer for Jo's sake: Jo, I have not personally interviewed the weathermen who produced the weather report Ckret provided, I have not personally interviewed Ckret, I have not personally interviewed Himmelsbach or Rataczak or Dr. Hawking or Bozo the Clown. So you will probably discount all of the following. Now back to business. The FAA Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge defines sky cover as follows: 1. Less than 1/8 sky cover is defined as "scattered, clear or few". [In my experience it is usually called "clear".] 2. From 1/8 to 2/8 sky cover is defined as "few". 3. From 3/8 to 4/8 sky cover is defined as "scattered". 4. From 5/8 to 7/8 sky cover is defined as "broken". 5. A 8/8 sky cover is defined as "overcast". 6. "Ceiling" is defined as the height above the earth's surface of the lowest layer of clouds, which is reported as "broken" or "overcast", or the vertical visibility into an obscuration. Using these definitions, the "broken" clouds that Ckret reports at 3500 feet would be the "ceiling". And the "ceiling" that Ckret reports at 5000 feet would probably be listed as an "overcast". If the weather information was available above 5000 feet, it was probably not reported by Ckret since Cooper would not be able to see the ground until he was below 5000 feet or maybe even below 3500 feet. Overall, the cloud cover was not good for spotting a parachute jump from 10,000 feet. Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw, It is very simple. Cooper would know to jump when he got to the end of the steps. He wouldn't try to jump from half-way up the steps. So when he got to the end of the steps there was only one thing left to do. Jump! Of course, Cooper didn't know exactly where he was geographically. Maybe to within 20 or 30 miles. Robert Nicholson Im going to stick my neck out and ask: "how does he know anything ... to within 20 or 30 miles ... IF he literally does not know anything" ? Anything is anything! (or, does anything actually escape from a black hole? Do black holes eventuallycollapse? Hawking says they do.) Georger, I'll yield the points to both you and Dr. Hawking. What I was trying to say is that Cooper didn't know precisely where the aircraft was and didn't have any means to determine its position with any degree of accuracy. So when he jumped, with the weather being what it was, it was basically just a matter of walking down to the last step on the stairs and then taking another step. No need to hang around hoping that he could spot something familiar through a break in the clouds. And Cooper could only hope that there was solid ground down there somewhere and not the Pacific Ocean as Rataczak had suggested. Himmelsbach was right in saying that Cooper had guts. That jump was a leap of faith in more ways than one. Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw, It is very simple. Cooper would know to jump when he got to the end of the steps. He wouldn't try to jump from half-way up the steps. So when he got to the end of the steps there was only one thing left to do. Jump! Of course, Cooper didn't know exactly where he was geographically. Maybe to within 20 or 30 miles. Robert Nicholson

I think Rataczak's made it pretty clear that the crew knew where they were at any given time during the flight. Airliners didn't just fly blind because there were clouds hanging around. Not generally. He's also been insistent on that they knew when Cooper jumped. Rataczak lays out the scenario clearly: 1) Airstairs open. Crew feels pressure bump in ears. Indicator light comes on showing door is now open in flight. 2) A short time later, less than two minutes at most, crew feels the plane bounce. 3) At the same time, the indicator light goes OFF for a second, and then comes back on for good, staying on for the remainder of the flight to Reno. 4) The indicator light came back on because when Cooper jumped, the stairs rebounded back to an almost-closed position for a second (light goes off), and then settled back down (light comes back on). Were they over Vancouver, or the Columbia River? Absolutely not. My information says at LEAST 8 and maybe 10 minutes of flying time north of Vancouver. This translates (@196mph) into between 24 and 32 miles north of Vancouver. This would put them in the area between the Merwin Lake Dam and a few miles south of that point. Not coincidentally...the place they also found the parachute, which STILL has not been explained to my satisfaction. I know some of you are accepting the FBI and Cossey's explanation on that one. No problem. I just don't agree. Mr. Blevins, After the airliner took off from Seattle, do you know the time (which is in the transcripts) and the approximate location of the aircraft when it reached 10,000 feet? The target cruise speed after reaching 10,000 feet was 170 Knots (don't confuse with MPH) Indicated Airspeed which translates to about 195 Knots True Airspeed. (That is about 224 MPH.) Or to put it another way, in level flight the airliner had a target speed of about 3.25 nautical miles per minute through the air mass. The ground speed is something else and to obtain it the true airspeed must be adjusted for the wind speed and direction. Mr. Blevins, what is your estimate of the wind speed and direction? What is your estimate of the ground speed? Do you have an estimate for the time of the jump? Do you have an estimate for the location of the jump? Does the sequence of the lights in the cockpit related to the air stairs provide a time for the jump? Probably. Do the lights provide a location for the jump? If you think so please explain your rationale. You estimate that the jump took place about 24 to 32 statute (?) miles north of Vancouver (what is now the Battleground VORTAC?). Assuming these assumptions are correct, that translates to about 21 to 28 nautical miles north of the present day Battleground VORTAC and presumably on or near the centerline of V-23. If Rataczak had one VOR and one DME tuned to what is now the BTG VORTAC, he could have instantly read them and that would have given a position for the jump that is as accurate as anything in the present day records. Did he do so? He apparently didn't. So the estimated location of the jump has to be made based on the estimated flight path and the estimated position of the airliner along that flight path. From the Seattle VORTAC to the current day Battleground VORTAC, is 105 nautical miles. The airliner probably passed within 1000 feet laterally of the Seattle VORTAC about the same time it rotated for take off. Using the previous estimate (converted to nautical miles) of 21 to 28 nautical miles north of the BTG VORTAC, leaves 77 to 84 nautical miles that the airliner must travel from Seattle to reach the area you have specified. Would you care to estimate the time the airliner arrived in the area you specified? Does this agree with what Rataczak said about the jump time? I look forward to your response. For your information, a number of calculations along the above line have already been made and I'm sure you can easily locate them. Good Luck! Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw, Your idea that aircraft can navigate accurately using "cloud glow", even when it is reportedly not visible, is very interesting. However, the hijacked airliner had at least two VORTAC receivers and two ADF receivers which I suspect are a lot more accurate than "cloud glow". This statement is just based on my personal experience among other things. It seems to be a case of you against the world as to whether or not Cooper knew his location when he jumped or had any means to determine his location. You are free to believe anything you want, but not all theories are created equal. Robert Nicholson

Jo, Something obviously happened to you today. Why don't you get some sleep tonight and tell us about it tomorrow. It is now after 4:00 AM in Florida. Robert Nicholson

Jo, Maybe you don't remember me but we exchanged PMs in December, January, February, and as recently as June 9th. These exchanges were initiated by you. You "memory" of me, or wild imaginations about me, seems to be working great this evening. One last comment, in the Portland area I only used one weather report and it covered the entire day. I didn't shop around looking for a weather report to support a particular scenario. Just the facts. Robert Nicholson

Since Jo is making allegations faster than I can read them, I'll use this means to answer some of them. First, contrary to Jo's claims, I do not believe the FBI maps giving the flight path (those that were provided to Sluggo by the FBI) are correct in the Portland area. I have so stated on this thread and elsewhere. Consequently, I must deny any efforts to make anyone believe they were created by the Almighty. Second, I did inform Airtwardo that there were published accounts stating that the cloud cover over Portland was so dense that even the glow from the city lights was not visible. I don't believe that constitutes telling him that he didn't have a clue. I haven't heard anything from a reliable source about Airtwardo being offended. Third, Jo has claimed that I am not a "skyjumper", and presumably never was. Sailshaw has claimed that I am not a pilot, and presumably never was, and, in addition, Sailshaw claims that I have never flown at night. These claims are pure BS and are only evidence that both Jo and Sailshaw don't know how to do their homework. Fourth, did I run all the knowledgeable and experienced people off the thread? How can anyone reply to such a claim as that? Fifth, I have never claimed to own this thread. And I most certainly don't own it. Sixth, just another day at the office with Jo. Seventh, I am beginning to look at Duane in a new light. Cheers. Robert Nicholson

ROBERT STOP THIS! WHAT QUALIFIES YOU TO DISPUTE THINGS THE SKYJUMPErS TRY TO TELL YOU AND WHAT THEY STATE! WHY WOULD YOU USE WEATHER INFORMATION PUBLISHED IN SOME OF THE BOOKS? DO YOUR DAMN RESEARCH AND YOU WILL FIND WHAT HAS BEEN STATED IS NOT TRUE! Sorry, but I got a big job to finish in the next few wks and the above is typical of why the case has never been solved. Who said what - what got his information from whom! There are ACTUAL RECORDS use those if you want to be the big wheel and the know-it-all. STOP stating that this was published or thatr was said - FIND the ACTUAL weather reports for all areas. GO talk to the only real witness who can give you the answers - personally. ALL you are doing is mudding the water with what someone else said in a book - what about actual reports. Use actual reports or forget this and stop wasting the time of those who really want to solve this and stop making mud cakes. What QUALIFIES you to dispute the word of the skyjumpers who did this during the war and those who do it recreationally. Jo, What in hell are you talking about?!! If you had done your own "damn research" you would know the answer to your own question! Basically, you are asking why I dared to offer some additional weather information to Airtwardo to clarify a statement that he had made. The weather information for the night of the jump is a matter of public record and is online. You could find that information yourself if you were interested. If the word of "skyjumpers" must be accepted without reservation, then why are you questioning what I say? Again, you haven't done your homework! Mud cakes? Do you have a recipe? Jo, I realize that your explosion this evening is due to the simple fact that I do not share your belief that Duane Weber was D. B. Cooper. I have previously explained this in PMs to you and elsewhere. Nor do I believe that Salishaw's candidate is viable. Nevertheless, that's the way the ball bounces. Sometimes life can be a real bitch! Best wishes. Robert Nicholson

There may be a problem as far as your sources are concerned - but please state your credentials on this thread to clarify you are an authority to disputed Cooper being able to see lights within the haze. The CO-PILOT's own statement disputes what you are saying Robert 99. Please EXPLAIN your credentials and YOUR sources of weather conditions along the complete flight path...and have YOU spoke to the Co-pilot? Have you sat down with him and a map and had him show you where they were? Have you ever actually sat with the co-pilot or the engineer or the pilot. Probably not because the only one I ever spoke to was the Co-Pilot and he was the one behind the controls. Many things have been taken out of context by the media - just as they are in this thread - so only use exact quotes you know to have come from the crew. What Qualifies you to make these statements as thought they are beyond reproach? Did you create the map or did you use a map created by someone on this thread? Sorry, but I have listened to the NAYSAYERS - when I have been told differenty by others who were on that plane....remember that I have been talking to people for 16 yrs. I did NOT record the conversations, but my damn notes are pretty accurate. If anyones watch was off by 1 minute or 2 minutes that changes a lot of things. There was also the relay and transcribing time - that enters into all of this. I take the Co-pilots own word that they were EAST of the PDX and that he was able to see Portland to his West and infront of him. I take his word that they passed between Portland and Troutdale Industrial and the ground reports also match this. RE-READ the above 2 Paragrapha and you will know how WEST ever entered a conversation that was misinterpreted by the media or another party over-hearing a conversation! The Co-pilot told me yrs ago before his accident that the plane was East of Portand and West of Cames as they crossed the Columbia - He knew were Portland was at that time. Do you guys not even realize the crew need to know if Cooper had left that plane - there are "minutes of communications MISSING" in the FBI records - Crucial minutes. Now you guys can continue to create your myths. Jo, You are having quite an evening. You are even implying that you are now an "expert" on maps while just recently you were claiming you didn't know how to read a map. If you had been paying any attention over the past couple of years, you would have some knowledge of my "credentials". These have been discussed on this thread and are also available elsewhere. I guess you missed those posts. And for the record, just exactly what are you "credentials" and also the "credentials" of Sailshaw? You two need the Janet myth to be accepted as fact and thus have a vested interest in it. Finally, what qualifies you or Sailshaw to make your own claims as though they were "beyond reproach". Robert Nicholson

Thus H in the Ntl Guard helicopter is flying around in the soup, in total dark, search lights off, looking for Cooper on the ground ... any lights, fire, watching vehicles moving, etc etc etc. Now that IS dark. You KNOW that has been disputed - a lot of things were reported by the media and writers strickly for the dramatics - and NOT always actual. You were NOT on that plane and these writers where NOT on that plane nor the investigators, but the CREW was! Jo, You were NOT on that airplane either! If you want to argue the above then get in touch with Himmelsbach. Robert Nicholson

Jo, Ralph Himmelsbach's statement as quoted in Nuttall's book contradicts your claims above. Where or how can your claims about the crew's statements be verified? Basically, at this point it is just your word against Himmelsbach's. Presumably, your remarks about maps refer to the maps provided to Sluggo by the FBI. I believe Sluggo has previously responsed to your claims that he (or someone else) had modified them after receiving them from the FBI. In any event, what is the basis for your claim to know what maps the FBI actually used? How could this thread create extra time? How could this thread create a map? You and Sailshaw are apparently the only two people on this thread that buy into the Janet nonsense. Both of you are pushing a Cooper candidate and both of you need a flight path for the airliner that is east of Portland or at least over the Portland airport. Neither you or Sailshaw apparently have the capability to determine the airliner's flight path based on the available public evidence. You and Sailshaw will have to peddle you goods somewhere else as far as I am concerned. At least I am not going to buy such baloney. Robert Nicholson

Farflung, Wasn't McCoy's airliner being trailed by a couple of F-111s whose crews saw him jump? Why the Cooper aircraft flew on to Reno is a good question. Remember that the stairs were down to one degree or another for about three hours on that flight so there was plenty of time for the skirting to get damaged. Personally, I don't remember ever seeing skirting on the rear stairs of a 727. Maybe it was there and maybe it wasn't. But the skirting in some of those photos doesn't look like it would serve as a "modesty" panel. Robert Nicholson

Thus H in the Ntl Guard helicopter is flying around in the soup, in total dark, search lights off, looking for Cooper on the ground ... any lights, fire, watching vehicles moving, etc etc etc. Now that IS dark. Georger, The helicopter was presumably below the clouds and could probably see ground lights. But it didn't have a chance of spotting Cooper or the airliner either. Robert Nicholson

What if he "perched" for a really long time? I know we have the pressure bump and the confirming sled tests, but let's say somehow he didn't actually exit until long after the pressure bump. Can anyone come up with a credible explanation of how the pressure bump might have been caused by something other than Cooper's exit, like bouncing on the stairs or something like that? Occam is frowning, I know, I know... 377 377, It is reasonably certain that the bump coincided with Cooper's jump from the stairs. The co-pilot flew the airliner in the FBI tests and stated that the separation of the weights that were dropped produced the same type bump. It Cooper had lingered for several minutes on the steps, he would have frozen his posterior off. The wind chill factor on those stairs was about 35+ degrees F below zero. Robert Nicholson

However...if you were a Skydiver, you would understand that there is a huge difference between looking 'out' forward and looking 'down'. If it's scattered or broken it looks a lot different hanging outside looking down than it does from the front office. I mentioned it prior in one of these threads, if it were 'me' or someone like me, I would be out back looking down through an imaginary 'cone' of parachute decent & hiking ability, when I saw a large cluster of lights that falls within that cone...jumper away! Airtwardo, The weather information published in some of the books indicates that there was a complete overcast (total cloud cover) plus several additional broken layers of cloud. This effectively eliminates the possibility of seeing anything on the ground even by looking straight down. Sailshaw is trying to claim that Cooper managed to land a round canopy parachute adjacent to the Portland International Airport and then walked over to the airport's parking lot, picked up his car, and then drove off into the night with the money. Sailshaw, if he understands what he is writing, claims that Cooper could do the above if he could just see the glow of the Portland city lights through the clouds. However, there is a problem with this claim. George Nuttall states in his book, page 95, that Ralph Himmelsbach (quoting the copilot) told Nuttall's research associate, Harry Grady, that the cloud cover below them in the Portland/Vancouver area was so dense that they could not see landmarks or even the glow of city lights. Sailshaw's proposed version of events is nonsense. Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw, I appreciate your humor. Enjoy you life as a comedian, but see below. Since you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about, you could probably also have a great career in some of our new political parties. You could just arrive in some town in your flying saucer and that alone would guarantee an invitation to appear on all the talk shows. You could then give your version of history and your audience would automatically become true believers. Except maybe one or two who could read. Time for a pop quiz since you have previously claimed to not only be a pilot but an electrical engineer. In keeping with this threads interest, the quiz will be aviation related. And its multiple choice. Question: Which end of an airplane takes off first? Choices: a. Front b. Tail c. Both d. Neither e. All of the above. Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw, You continue to ignore the simple fact that the flight crew (those three fellows in the cockpit, which is located in the forward part of the aircraft) has been quoted by several authors as stating they could not see the Portland/Vancouver area lights as they pass overhead. The reason was several layers of clouds plus a complete overcast. Consequently, Cooper's only navigational instruments were a wrist watch (assuming he was wearing one) and whatever was going on inside his head. Yet you claim that he was able to land a round canopy parachute adjacent to the Portland Airport's parking lot, retrieve his car, and drive off into whatever. Your theory of navigation is novel. Perhaps you should open Sailshaw's School of Aerial Navigation. In this day and age you might even get rich. Your students could forget about the need for navigational radio aids, compasses, celestial navigation instruments, etc. But Amelia, may she rest in peace, would definitely not serve as a spokeswoman for you school, assuming she was still around and able to do so. Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw (and 377 also if he believes your numbers are "right on"), I hope this isn't too technical for you. First, there was no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper could have known where he was when he jumped. This has been covered in great detail on this thread and elsewhere. Second, you indicate that in your grand scheme Cooper jumped from the airliner about 8:25 and was on the ground about 8:30 just a short walk from the Portland Airport's parking lot where his car was parked. In reality at about 8:20, the airliner reported its position as being 23 DME miles (or nautical miles) south of the Portland VORTAC (which is now designated the Battleground VORTAC). So by 8:25 (your jump time), the airliner was probably 38 to 40 DME miles south of that VORTAC or about 25 to 27 nautical miles south of the Portland Airport. Can you explain this difference in times and locations? Third, it is very unlikely that 377 or any experienced skydiver would tell you that Cooper would average a free-fall speed of 120 MPH from 10,000 feet to 3000 feet. That speed is only good at sea level, standard atmosphere conditions, and in a stable spread position. How did Cooper maintain a stable spread position when he was in the clouds and did not have any visual references whatsoever? He couldn't. Other questions. What was the wind chill factor at the instance Cooper separated from the airliner's steps? What were the atmospheric conditions in the Portland area at the time of the jump compared to a standard atmosphere? Your attempts to twist facts to point to your selected Cooper candidate border on the laughable. You need to stick to something that you know and you obviously don't know anything about aerodynamics, free-falling bodies, aerial navigation, or other aeronautical disciplines even if you do have a private pilot's license. Again, I hope the above was not to technical for you and written in a style that you can understand. Robert Nicholson

I always liked entropy Georger. You call it anarchy, I call it social thermodynamics. 73, 377 377, Using definitions from my desktop dictionary, entropy is defined as "a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interprted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system." Anarchy is defined as "a state of disorder due to the absence or non-recognition of government or other controlling systems." In the case of thermodynamics, mechanical work can only be done between two different temperatures and the process of doing that work is not 100 percent efficient which results in a steady increase in entropy or a reduction of disorder or randomness. Eventually the whole system would be at the same temperature and no further work would be possible. Entropy could not increase further. Call it 100% entropy if you wish. In the case of anarchy, the desire is to go from some ordered or non-random state to a disordered or chaotic state. Thus it would seem that anarchy is at 100% when there is chaos and no order. From the above, it would seem that entropy and anarchy are headed in opposite directions. On the original subject of intellectual property rights, it should be noted that they are definitely protected in the Los Angeles area. Is the San Francisco area still a part of California? Was it ever? Before Blevins starts infringing on the intellectual property rights of others, he and Adventure Books, or whoever, should review their financial situation to see just how much money they can lose. However, I am not a lawyer and the above is not legal advice. (Is that a disclaimer?) Robert Nicholson

Blevins writes: "I never wanted to get involved in the Cooper case." Blevins, Your modesty is overwhelming. The Cooper case is the best thing that ever happened to you from a writing and possible screen play point of view. You have a terminal case of the "Cooper fever". You have signed off from this thread at least three times but were always right back here the next day. Who's going to play you in the movie? John Wayne has been gone for some time. Arnold? Maybe you could help rehabilitate him. Do you have other candidates for the role? Good luck. And keep a towel nearby to wipe that stuff off your face when Cooper's real identity becomes known. Robert Nicholson

she wants to know if the Viet officer's name is TONY WONG ...

Bruce, Do you want to talk about it? Robert Nicholson

Farflung, I guess that I have to ask the question, whether I believe the answer or not, just to satisfy my morbid curiosity. So how many Bigfoots can hide in a Roswell saucer? Robert Nicholson

Pat71, You are a breath of fresh air to this thread. And you will probably discover all to soon how desperately we need fresh air here. Robert Nicholson