Robert99

IF the FBI had even talked to JOHN they would KNOW those answers. John was a consultant for Boeing with the ARMY FOR 6 YRS- DOES this explain the above to you? I have stated this time and time again and the FBI was told this. I have had surgery - and this is ALL I feel like saying. I have said it before - NOW the FBI needs to check their background on John and his ARMY records are something the FBI should have already checked. Jo, I trust you came through the surgery okay, but will all due respect your response doesn't explain anything. What connection did the Army have with the 727 program? Probably nothing directly. The program that used about 5 727s in southeast Asia was not an Army program in the usual sense of the word. The Army may have had knowledge of the program, but it was run by those famous Other Government Organizations. And probably only a handful of people at Boeing were aware of the southeast Asia program and nothing you have written to date indicates a connection of any kind with John. Simply having been in the Army is not good enough. Millions of other people have also been in the Army. Robert Nicholson

Jo, As has been explained on this thread any number of times, on the night of the hijacking Boeing personnel had to search for anyone who could provide information about the possible deployment of the aft stairs in flight. This means that such information was not "common knowledge". Why would the original commercial version of the 727 deploy the stairs in flight anyway? As 377 has also repeatedly pointed out, there is nothing in the aircraft handbooks related to even the accidental deployment of the stairs in flight. Consequently, the airlines and flight crews operating the 727 would not have any handbook information as to what they should do if the stairs deployed on their own. Did Duane even know how to read the wiring diagrams for the original commerical 727s? Just exactly what did John "consult" with Boeing about? Did John ever even see the blueprints for the 727 and if so for what purpose? Cooper did know that the 727 could take-off with the aft stairs unlocked and slightly down. He told Tina that despite agreeing to take-off with the stairs up to stop an argument with the crew and get the plane airborne. Again, only about 5 727s routinely deployed the aft stairs in flight in southeast Asia and those aircraft had probably had some modifications to the stairs, the control panel for the stairs, and the motors that raised and lowered the stairs. After lowering the stairs had served its purpose, the next thing is to close and lock them in the up position so that the aircraft pressure bulkhead door can be closed and the aircraft pressurized again and then climb back to its normal operating altitude. I doubt if either Duane or John had any knowledge of what unusual activities the southeast Asia 727s were involved in or had the potential to do. Robert Nicholson

I don't know how the Third Amendment, which forbids the quartering of soldiers in private homes without the owner's consent, figures into this. But there is a famous saying in the aviation industry to the effect that aircraft designers should make the first flights of the aircraft they have designed. That way, bad aircraft designs will eliminate the bad designers. The Wright Brothers were indeed self-educated in the aviation field. Nevertheless, they were still the leading designers and pilots for several years after 12-17-1903. They had several aircraft accidents including the first fatal accident in the history of heavier-than-air machines. The smart pilots, parachutists, etc. are those that learn from the mistakes of others. Of course, someone has to be the first to make a specific mistake and suffer the consequences. Robert Nicholson

In the mid to late 40's I have no idea what certificates were needed. I expect those who do NOT know need to find out what Duane's father did prior to moving to CA from OH and know who his friends where. Family friends who assisted Duane's father in his move to CA in 1943 participated in an unusual hobby. Parts for old airplanes often had to be made because of the war. If you have Duane's personal affects then you would have the proof. If he was a SM and was a Paratrooper there is a record of it. So prove your statement. I do not think you can, since I believe Duane was a two bit hood and crook, all the way to his death and conned you too. Matt Exposure to planes and knowledge of jumping can happen thru association - 1943 to 1949 - do you REALLY believe that everyone who learned to jump was in a school of some kind. What about private planes and some guys trying to makes some money and innovations. What if an Uncle or Grandparent or a Family friend has their own plane and was trained himself? What about the individuals out there trying to make a buck - this was the time of innovation and inventions? A young man who is helping the trained individuals gather up their chutes and whose family is associated with the owners of the planes. Don't any of you realize there were LOTS of young men shown how to jump - maybe on their Uncle or Fathers own farm. I have already explained how Duane knew about the 727's but NO one ever listened. Perhaps some of you along with the FBI needs to check into Duane's father and Uncle's background. Then I suggest you take it one more step forward - Duane did learn the basics during WW11 while in the service. He had the opportunity, the knowledge of the plane and enough skill to pull it off. It is all right there in the family history - but the FBI did NOT go there. They never checked out another relative of Duane's who WAS a jumper in the WAR and as the story goes used that knowledge for OTHER endeavors. Jo, With all due respect, let's get serious about a couple of things. In the WWII and following years, the only thing dumber than a self-taught parachutist would be a do-it-yourself brain surgeon. If Duane didn't have a reasonably good instructor and good equipment, there is an excellent chance that he would have suffered some kind of injuries within 5 or 10 jumps. Whatever knowledge that Duane had of the commercial 727 is irrevelant. Cooper had specific knowledge about the stairway although he reportedly had trouble lowering it, but that can easily be explained. Only about 5 727s were used by CIA front organizations in southeast Asia. And Duane, with a police and prison records, would not have a security clearance or access to how these 727s had been modified or what they were being used for. So in my opinion, it is very unlikely that Duane had any parachuting experience (Cooper probably didn't either) or that he had access to information about the 727 that Cooper definitely had. Robert Nicholson

That is logical, but it may not be what happened. Snow posted info about other successful jet skyjack jumps and at least one of the guys had no prior parachute experience as I recall. I suspect Cooper knew a lot about 727s and about parachuting too. His orders about flap angles and altitude tell me he was well informed. 377 377, Cooper's knowledge of the 727's rear stairs and the flight conditions for dropping parachutists and equipment down the rear stairs is why the initial pool of suspects in late 1971 was probably less than 500 people worldwide. If I remember correctly, about 1500 people have already confessed to being Cooper and/or been investigated as possible suspects. Robert Nicholson

Orange, After visiting the above link, I see your point and it is certainly correct when applied to this thread. Robert Nicholson

Jon Krakauer's book is about climbers dying on Mount Everest during an expedition that went very badly south. I thought that was an excellent book. So was "Learning to breathe" by Andy Cave. Mountain climbers and skydivers seem to have a lot of the same drivers. Btw I attended a couple of lectures on behavioral finance/economics today. Some of it made me think of some posters on this thread :) Orange, Please elaborate on what you call "behavioral finance/economics". Some of us are not always hip to these modern terms. Robert Nicholson

Mr. Blevins, I would suggest that you re-read the above post objectively. You state that "eyewitness reports can be notoriously unreliable". You also claim that a couple of your eyewitnesses know everything about the KC matter. Basically, all you are doing is claiming that "THEIR eyewitnesses are unreliable while YOUR eyewitnesses are reliable, except of course, YOUR eyewitnesses that disagree with your theory". Show me some logic in your post. Otherwise, it is just BS. Robert Nicholson

She's talking about a post you made identifying Tina's ex where you subsequently realized you erred and retracted. Who knows why that is relevant. Sluggo - This is the part that I don't get. I mean why? It's a 40 year old case, the perpetrator is either dead or an eighty-ish year old man, the remaining money is probably gone forever in whatever form. Regardless of all this, it's seems likely to be largely unprosecutable (or at least non-convictable) anyway. I get that the FBI doesn't like this case going down as unsolved, but frankly, the majority of people paying 4 - 5$ a gallon for gas couldn't care less. Many of them had probably either forgotten or never heard of the case until the FBI brought it back into the limelight. So....other than the reasons from folks who believe all that they see in M. Night Shyamalan movies, the only reason I can think of for people who know stuff not just putting everything out there is for hopes of monetary gain or momentary fame. I'm really not trying to be facetious - What am I missing here? Smokin99, You are not missing anything.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/magazine/mag-24Autism-t.html/?pagewanted=5&_r=1&smid=fb-nytimes Orange, To put the same meaning into a more common English saying, there is a saying that "The first person a con man cons is himself."

Yeah. Take KC and his buddy for example. Occam asks, what were they most likely doing over Thanksgiving 1971? a. having a Brokeback Mountain vacation in the Airstream. b. rendezvousing, as planned, after a successful skyjack jump. c. both of the above. 377 377, Occam doesn't ask anything. Occam is a "principle" (perhaps "suggestion" would be a better word) not a law of nature. Occam simply suggests that when you have two competing theories that provide the same answer you may as well use the simpler one, other things being equal. This does not mean that the more complex theory is wrong or even that the simpler one is correct. Your three possible answers listed above can be expanded to include any number of possibilities. But the last possibility should be, "z. None of the above.". Only the two people involved know where they were and what they were doing that weekend. They may not have even been together. Robert Nicholson

Sluggo, Thanks for the pictures. On the particular HSI in the second attachment, it looks like only one VOR (or Localizer), and no ADF, can be displayed on the instrument. Note the Radio Magnetic Indicator (RMI) immediately to the left of the HSI and the two switches immediately below the RMI. Two VORs, two ADFs, or one of each, can apparently be displayed on the RMI. The control panels for the VORs and ADFs, one panel for the pilot and the other for the co-pilot, are located on the console between the pilots. I don't see a control panel that would specifically select one VOR (or LOC) for display on the HSI, but one exists somewhere as well as one for selecting one of the DME readouts for the HSI display. The instrument just above the HSI is the Flight Director and it has a warning flag for the Localizer. The Localizer needle would have to be the dark line extending downwards from the symbol that represents the airplane. The flight instrument displays have evolved over time and continue to do so. And pilots spend a lot of time in ground school learning how to use the instruments, set them up, etc.. Robert Nicholson

No info on instrument mfrs, but I'll try to look up the other stuff. From memory, ADFs (2) can be displayed on dual pointer RMI (will accept 2 azimuth selsyn inputs). Not sure what can be displayed on HSI, certainly one VOR. 2 VHF AM comm radios. 2 VOR to/from radial instruments. DME. No HF SSB, no INS., no RTTY. My manual is from Continental for domestic ops. NWA might have been equipped differently. What is the purpose of your question? Nav accuracy or? 377 377, My interest is in determining the navigational and communications capability of the NWA aircraft. Presumably, the famous Captain Bohan's Continental aircraft, which has never been identified to my knowledge, would have the same instruments and capability as you have just described for their 727s. The Devil is in the details and the claims that have been made. Robert Nicholson

Couldnt agree with you more Robert, although I'd add Boeing employee to that list of those who could be in the know. Sheridan Peterson worked at Boeing during the 727 rollout. His job was in technical documentation. He also founded the Boeing Skydive Club. I bet he had a decent opportunity to examine the test data that Boeing compiled during in flight 727 stair deployments. I know Boeing did such tests because they were accessed to get FAA approval for the 727 jumps at WFFC in Quincy Illinois. Don Kirlin had to do battle to get the test data but he succeeded. A 727 jumpship owned by AMJET made several appearances at the annual skydive meet. I think Cooper had access to Boeing info indicating that the 727 could fly safely with the stairs deployed. He had to know, otherwise capture was nearly certain. He wasn't so dumb as to just guess that it could be opened. He knew speeds, the necessity for unpressurized flight, right altitude to avoid hypoxia but still give sufficient terrain clearance. He had obviously (at least as I see it) done some research. Not even the flight crew knew whether the 727 could fly safely with the stairs down. They had to contact NWA HQ and NWA contacted Boeing which provided the affirmative answer. I have a very detailed 727-100 flight manual and it says nothing about the subject. 377 377, Does your 727-100 flight manual give the details of the cockpit radio and navigational instruments? How many VORs could the aircraft tune at one time? How many ADFs could be tuned at one time? How many voice transciever radios did the aircraft have? Could the information from two VORs be displayed on the Horizontal Situation Indicator at the same time? Could the information from the ADF be displayed on the HSI along with one or both VORS at the same time? Does anyone have cockpit instrument information specific to NWA 727 aircraft in the 1971 time frame? If so, do you have information to identify the specific cockpit instrument manufacturers and operating capability? Robert Nicholson

Damn right he does. They just sound funny PERIOD. It isnt relative or situational. No wonder the Dodgers left. 377 377, Let's say that two Bronxites (or whatever) have never been outside of the Bronx, never heard a radio or seen TV, and have never seen or heard of anyone from outside the Bronx. How can they tell that they have accents? Robert Nicholson

True Robert, but if you account for a little author enhancement it still is intriguing. Nobody wants to read about a cold uncomfortable walk, they want a barely survivable trek through a freezing hell. If he was wet, the low 40s could have put him into hypothermia pretty fast. It would not have been a cakewalk. If indeed he lost one shoe in the jump it would be much worse, What strikes me is the location, the cold and the focus on inadequate clothing, particularly footwear. Somehow a cold weather survival experience hiking along banks of the Columbia River is clumsily woven in to a tale about Viet Nam. Very odd. Coincidence? Sure, very well could be. But the opposite is far more appealing to my biased mind. There is another passage at the end of the book where the central figure Grecco (who I think is really Peterson) is doing an off drop zone solo freefall jump deep into the in Viet Nam wilderness and angsts about the unknown ground elevation and how it might affect his choice of an opening altitude. If Cooper had prior jump expereince I'll bet similar thoughts knawed at him as he went down those stairs. too long a freefall delay could put you into elevated terrain at 120 mph. The chioce of "Grecco" for the hrero's name might be related to Peterson's appearance, Bob said he was olive skinned and looked Greek. I can see faces in clouds and clouds in coffee, so I take all my speculation lightly. Of all the suspects, however, I think Peterson is among the best qualified. The FBI sure thought he was a person of interest and may have had additional info about him that looked like it could have linked him to Norjack. 377 377, I believe the flight attendants indicated that Cooper MIGHT have been of SLIGHTLY Mediterranean origin although he spoke without an accent. So if Cooper had an accent, it was the same one that the flight attendants had and, thus, appeared to not be an accent to them. Does a native of the Bronx have an accent when he is in the Bronx? As I stated a long time ago, at the time of the hijacking there probably wasn't 500 people worldwide who had the detailed knowledge of the 727 and its aft stairs that Cooper demonstrated the night of the hijacking. And if I haven't already said so, in my opinion, Cooper was probably a former employee of the US Government or a US Government contractor. Admittedly, the contractor comment covers a lot of firms. Robert Nicholson

100% confirmed, in the smoke jumper history archives. He was in the Missoula (MSO) class of 1953 and became a full fledged USFS smoke jumper. Pete was an out of the box thinker on skydiving too. He was doing home made bat wing jumps, night jumps, all sorts of stuff back in the day. He was a sport jumper in Viet Nam while he worked as a civilian refugee advisor. Of course I am biased, and I agree that Bob's account of "Dan's" pointed inquiry about 727 stairs a decade before the skyjack should raise some skeptical eyebrows, Still, let's see how it pans out. I have always been intrigued by a passage from his book where the main character spends a miserable night trudging along the freezing banks of the Columbia River wearing loafers, with leather soles that were frozen. Other stuff from the book mirror's Pete's real world experiences, such as the Bubbleator job and various skydiving episodes. 377 377, As much as I hate to discount a promising theory, let me point out that the minimum temperature in Portland, OR was 44 degrees on November 24, 1971 and 43 degrees on November 25, 1971. So anyone truding along the banks of the Columbia River near Portland the evening of the hijacking would no doubt be miserable but their shoe soles would not be frozen or anything close to it. Robert Nicholson

377, What is the name of the last DBC book you read? Would you recommend some DBC books for the rest of us? Robert Nicholson

JT, When will your book be out? Don't be shy about admitting what you are doing. You can't hid your intentions forever. And you well know that everyone on DZ can keep a secret. Robert Nicholson

Actually, I am an aeronautical engineer who also started learning to fly when I was 15 years old. So I have been juggling these performance numbers longer than you and Georger have been breathing in all probability. For the record, it's just about paying attention to all the nit-picking details. RN99

At 8:10 PM PST, the FBI notes indicate that the fuel flow was reported as 4000 pounds/hour/engine which comes out to 12,000 pounds/hour/total or 2000 gallons per hour if Jet A weighs 6 pounds/gallon (I think the number is slightly more). The above fuel flow numbers are reported to be the ones that the NWA performance group used in their range calculations. With a true air speed of 194 knots (or 223 statute miles per hour) this comes out as 9 gallons per mile, ignoring wind, or 587 feet per gallon. The feet per gallon would be less than 587 due to the headwinds. Robert Nicholson

That wasn't the problem Farflung. Drag is far more important in ship performance than weight. If weight were a big factor those huge container ships would have to be nuclear powered to do 23 knots but they do OK with big diesels of relatively low horsepower (100,000 hp typical). A Boeing 747 has about 500,000 hp. A friend of mine is an officer on a medium sized container ship and he says he calculates that they burn about 60 gallons per mile. The Palo Alto (which I used to fish off of when I was a kid, before they blocked access) displaced about 6000 tons and did about as well as any other ship of similar size with a T3 steam engine. That engine only developed 375 hp at full boiler pressure (nhp). It obviously wouldn't win any races. In the 60s and 70s a lot of so called ferro-cement fishing commercial boats were built. They performed OK and were cheap to build, but eventually water would penetrate the cement and the encased steel rebar and wire mesh would start to rust. Cracks ensued. They could be patched, but what really killed the ferro-cement boat craze was a university engineering study that showed that the hull strength was directly proportional to the amount of steel used in rebar and mesh, hence the strongest ferro-cement boat would have 100% steel and no cement, so back to welded steel hulls. There is a ferro-cement commercial fishing boat at Princeton harbor at Half Moon Bay, called the EOLITH. It's still shipshape and active. If you want to see a real radical ship building idea check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk I am awaiting details of Jerry's flow tests. If stuff launched in the Washougal ended up at Tena Bar that is significant. I know flow, storms, tides etc are big complicating factors in trying to model how the currency stacks might have travelled over that path, but still it is a big deal if Jerry has demonstrated at least a possibility that the Tena Bar bills orginated in the Washougal. 377 That medium size container ship gets 88 feet per gallon if it only uses 60 gallons per mile. There is a sign in the Queen Mary's (docked in the LA area) engine room that states it got about 10 or 11 feet per gallon of diesel after it was converted from coal. Maybe the Queen Mary cruised at a higher speed and was a lot smaller, but the container ship's fuel consumption seems to be high. Robert Nicholson

Jerry, I thought you were either writing or serving as a consultant to all the people who were doing books or TV programs. For the record, I have been to Bonneville Dam, I have driven across the Bridge of the Gods, and I have seen that big pond downstream from Tina Bar several times over the last 65+ years. Keeping in mind that the Columbia River level at Tina Bar is normally between 5 and 10 feet above sea level, and that the ole' Buttermilk Moon's daily effect on the level of the river at Tina Bar is less than two feet, most of the changes in the river's water level are due to water releases from Bonneville Dam (which is not a flood control type structure) and inflows from streams downstream of Bonneville Dam. So the Columbia River's level at Tina Bar is influenced greatly by rainfall and snow melts upstream. Some people in the Vancouver/Portland area keep records on the level of the Columbia River. They even have a water level gage on the Vancouver side of the river and just east of the I-5 bridge. The data from that gage indicates quite a large variation of the river level during the winter and spring. But you have indicated previously that inflows from the Washougal watershed routinely results in objects from there being washed up at Tina Bar. To be repeatable, the water flow patterns must be similar. What was the river water level at the time you did your tests? Did you do tests at different water levels? Surely you thought to record such information during your investigation. Robert Nicholson

Professor Thomas, I would greatly benefit from your wisdom and learning if you would answer the two following questions. First, In the 1990 version of the Sauvie Island, OR-WA topographical map, there is an object at the north (downstream) end of Catepillar Island, and just a few hundred feet upstream from the money find location. The object appears to be the remains of a beached ship. Do you know what the object actually was and if it has been removed from the river? Do you know when the object first appeared in the river? It does not appear in the 1970 to 1979 series of aerial photographs that Sluggo has on his site. Second, Would you please explain the water flow patterns that move objects from the Washougal watershed to Tina Bar on a repeatable basis? For the movement to be repeatable, the flow patterns must be similar. Please give specific details. Smoke, mirrors, and voodoo are not sufficient. Robert Nicholson

Vicki and Jerry, I have taken another look at the above link and at 8:57 and 8:58 the certificate is reasonably visible to the camera. However, the image on youtube is not readable, at least to me. But if Vicki could send the better e-mail version to someone with photographic type skills, perhaps at least part of that certificate could be enlarged and read. If that certificate is a commendation or such, it almost definitely will include his serial number. But I am not familiar with the way Navy serial numbers were set up. Robert Nicholson