Robert99

Quade: If the money had just 'fallen', it wouldn't have been found all in the same place. I'm not suggesting individual bills fell or even individual straps (100 bills), but rather an entire bank bundle ($20,000) may have become separated from the rest. One of the major flaws in almost any heist movie is respect for the weight of whatever it is that the crooks are stealing. For instance, in the Batman movie with Heath Ledger as Joker, in an early scene, he's causally flipping huge duffle bags of money into the back of the bus. Well, a duffle bag full of money is going to weigh quite a bit. Unless The Joker is a hell of a lot stronger than he looks, those bags were essentially empty. 22 pounds of extra whatever strapped to a single point while also wearing these old school parachutes would make for an "interesting" time. A smart and skydive savvy DB Cooper might have opted to distribute the weight and literally not place all his eggs in one basket. What I'm suggesting may have happened, is it's entirely possible that in rigging up, a "bank bundle" of bills got out of his control. Think about it another way, IF DB Cooper survived, then how did that money get there? Certainly a DB Cooper that survived wouldn't leave it there intentionally. The money would have had to have simply gotten out of his control. The most reasonable explanation is it happened either during his gearing up or during his descent, but it's perfectly clear to me that if Cooper survived, he didn't just drop the money and decide not to pick it up. If a live DB Cooper could have lost the money, then so too could the Cooper that cratered. Again, I don't put a whole lot of stock in Tina's Bar being all that definitive as an indication where Cooper may have cratered/landed. Quade, Tina said that Cooper was tieing the money bag to his waist the last time she saw him. That means he had secured the loot, except for maybe a small amount that he stuck in his rain coat pockets. The stairs had not been lowered at that point. As Robert Blevins points out, if Cooper had lost some of the money during his descent, it would have been scattered any number of miles by the wind which was from the southwest at about 26 knots (at 10,000 feet) that evening. If the money landed at Tina Bar as a result of the wind, Cooper's jump point would have been 10+ miles southwest of there and well into Oregon. The only sensible flight path for the airliner would have been to fly almost straight south (with respect to the grid lines) from the Toledo, WA area to the point reported as 27 DME miles south of the present day Battleground VORTAC on V-23. Such a flight path would have taken the aircraft almost directly over Tina Bar. The much hyped idea of a flight path passing east of Portland is utter nonsense since it would have added about 10 to 15 nautical miles to the distance to Reno at the very time the flight crew didn't know if they had sufficient fuel to get there in the first place. And weather was not a factor in this flight. The only weather the flight crew was informed of before taking off from Seattle was some haze south of Portland. And the airliner did encounter some light ice in that area. But Captain Bohan's famous 80 knot winds from the southeast at 14,000 feet are pure bunk. At 10,000 feet, the airliner only encountered the 26 knot winds from the southwest mentioned above. Robert

You are correct. I understand that she is still performing at clubs in that area at the age of 73. What ever happened to the Tiger Girl at the Condor? Robert

Amazon, Have they gone to elastic POBs? That would surprise me, but progress often does. Those ones with metal springs inside hold tension for decades. I popped a belly reserve in 2000 that was last packed in 1974. POBs opened the flaps right up and the pilot chute spring did its thing... launched itself across the room. It had a kicker plate. Robert, Try a compass as your metal detector, it might be more sensitive than trying to feel a magnet pull. Look for deflection. A cheap magnetic stud finder should work too. Don't ask for one of those in SF, it wont be what you expect. 377 377, each of the bands has five very small wires. Each wire is in its own grove with the cloth between each wire stitched. While I can feel the wires, I can't feel the springs even going from one end of the band to the other. My NB-6 may have also had these wires in 1971 and I just never noticed them but just assumed they were rubber type bands. I happened to be in SF over the Labor Day weekend of 1966. Somehow I found myself sitting on a stool at a place of entertainment that was quite famous at that time. A lady by the name of Carol Dodo, if I got the last name spelled right, walked by me and brushed my left elbow with her famous 44+ whatevers. With that experience, there was nothing further for me to do in SF so I have not been back. Robert

But it's a ridiculous idea for finding the DB Cooper "crater." Think about it for just a few minutes. Let's say we could figure out where in 3D space he left the aircraft. That we also knew the wind speed and what altitude he pulled. Let's say we could be certain to within a 1 mile radius of where he cratered. Which BTW, is absolutely impossible with the current data, but for the sake of argument let's say we actually could do it. How long do you think it would take to sweep that area with a metal detector? Remember, you're probably going to be walking the search area at less than 0.1 mph and sweeping an area about 6 feet wide. Quade and 377, without giving away any of my "secrets" (since Jo doesn't advertise hers either), let me point out that the "current data" is not the only way to approach this particular event. I agree that there is no way to locate a jump point or landing point based on the publicly released FBI information. And if I remember correctly, I have pointed this out a time or two. Consequently, we (meaning me) have been reduced to just using common sense even though it may be inferior to "official" information. The Wisdom of the Ages includes the facts that the law of gravity still works for one an all and that water runs downhill. Possibly the only "fact" in this matter is where the money was found at Tina Bar and I think that location is generally agreed to within a few hundred feet. But one "fact" is all that is needed to start developing other "facts", etc., etc.. And developing "facts" is an ongoing process. Obviously, I do not subscribe to the "theory", even if it may be the "official" one, that Cooper landed 20 miles up the river from Tina Bar. I do not subscribe to the "theory" that the airliner passed on the east side of Portland, even if all three pilots gave sworn statements to that effect, since such a flight path simply does not make sense. I do subscribe to the theory that the Cooper hi-jacking is still solvable even at this date. And I will continue along that line. Don't color me "Alice (or Robert) in Wonderland". Just color me as being realistic. Robert

377 and Amazon, I now have the container referred to above in hand. It was manufactured in 1988 but never put in service. It has six, at least, horizontal metal bands as stiffeners and two, at least, vertical stiffeners. In the fall of 1971, and maybe in to mid-November, I owned an NB-6 that I used as an emergency chute. This particular chute's container and canopy were probably manufactured in the 1950 to 1960 time frame. There are some differences in the two NB-6 containers based on a 40 year old memory. There seem to be more metallic stiffeners in the new container. Contrary to 377's earlier statement, the packing bands on both containers seem to be elastic rather than having a metal spring. The other differences appear to be "product improvement" types. The six horizontal stiffeners are bowed such that the wearer's back would be sitting in a U. No one is going to be able to put even a 26 foot conical canopy in this container until they work over these stiffeners with a sledge hammer. And a 28 foot flat canopy fitting into this container is completely out of the question, beer talk to the contrary. If Cooper actually jumped with a NB-6, he may have done so due to a preference for Navy equipment. Robert Using the best magnet obtainable from Home Depot's cabinet door closing display, I have now conducted some experiments to determine what reacts with the magnet in the NB-6 container as well as other items. The NB-6 container that I have contains six horizontal stiffeners that strongly react with a magnet. It also contains one horizontal stiffener in each of the end flaps that does not react with a magnet. There are three vertical stiffeners and all strongly react with a magnet. There is one stiffener on each side of the container and the third is on the side flap that ends up on the top of the pile with the rip cord cones stick up through it. The flap opening springs react weakly with a magnet (and they are very small also). The hardware on the container that would be used to attach it to the harness also strongly reacts with a magnet. Does 377 or Amazon know if the other harness hardware and fasteners would react with a magnet? How about the coil spring in the pilot chute? Please remember that the shroud lines are sewn to the risers in the NB-6 and there is no hardware between your shoulder area and the pilot chute. Additional testing was conducted on belt buckles, pocket knives, and shoe nails. Some belt buckles react to magnets and some do not. Pocket knives react at least moderately to a magnet. The shoe nail testing was inconclusive since such nails are apparently not now used in shoes and I don't own a pair that is 40 years old. It seems reasonable, at least to me, that a metal detector would be able to detect an NB-6 parachute even after 40 years in the brush. Maybe we can induce the "Meteorite Searchers" of TV fame to do a search for us. Would someone care to call them and report a meteorite landing on the south end of the Fazio property and just short of that boat docking area and parking lot? Robert

377, That 26 foot conical canopy was what I was after. I used this chute in flying high-performance gliders which had a VERY cramped cockpit even for me (I fit in about the 55-60 percentile in height, weight, and major bone lengths for the male pilot population). In the 1960's era, the 26 foot conical canopy was in short supply and priced at least 2 or 3 times higher than 28 foot flat canopies. So they were hard to find, but my rigger found one for me and then, under his supervision, I removed some of the metallic stiffeners and maybe added a thicker back pad. The smaller pack with the 26 foot conical is what is desired. In high performance gliders, where the pilot is in a supine position, that back pad and other cushions are extremely important. Otherwise, since glider flights can routine last 6 to 8 hours, you may find yourself a long way from home and experiencing the tortures of the damned. Now that I have this container, I am just going to look at it for the time being. The guy I bought it from told me yesterday that he has four more of them if anyone is interested (send me a PM and I will give you his e-mail address in the Phoenix, AZ area). Robert

377 and Amazon, I now have the container referred to above in hand. It was manufactured in 1988 but never put in service. It has six, at least, horizontal metal bands as stiffeners and two, at least, vertical stiffeners. In the fall of 1971, and maybe in to mid-November, I owned an NB-6 that I used as an emergency chute. This particular chute's container and canopy were probably manufactured in the 1950 to 1960 time frame. There are some differences in the two NB-6 containers based on a 40 year old memory. There seem to be more metallic stiffeners in the new container. Contrary to 377's earlier statement, the packing bands on both containers seem to be elastic rather than having a metal spring. The other differences appear to be "product improvement" types. The six horizontal stiffeners are bowed such that the wearer's back would be sitting in a U. No one is going to be able to put even a 26 foot conical canopy in this container until they work over these stiffeners with a sledge hammer. And a 28 foot flat canopy fitting into this container is completely out of the question, beer talk to the contrary. If Cooper actually jumped with a NB-6, he may have done so due to a preference for Navy equipment. Robert

Wouldn't make for a very long OR interesting narrative...

Jo, In case you were addressing me with that remark, be aware that I do "know about 1971 and WHAT was available and NOT available" as well as 1961, 1951, 1941, and all the others since then. In fact, next Wednesday, November 24, 2010, will be the 39th anniversary of Cooper's hi-jacking and it will be another birthday for me as well. Robert

After a few years, or decades, computer searches have done about all they can do. Are you able to identify the flight path of the airliner? Not with the information released by the FBI. Do you have any idea where the haystack, even a huge one, is suppose to be? Does anyone have an idea as to how the search for Cooper can be "rebooted" and stick to facts rather than speculations? Robert

A P3C mission is beyond my means Robert but I have a freshly overhauled S2E coil based sub hunter magnetometer. Not very big or heavy. Has 400 hz servo motors for leveling the gimbled coils. Long story, was in a scrapyard selling stuff by the pound. I recogized what it was and couldn't bear to see it cut up. Cost $25. Hunting for Cooper with metal detectors is a hopeless task. Nothing distinct about an NB6 in the ferromagnetic realm. What are you hoping to accomplish by collecting NB6 hardware? 377 377, Do you have any suggestions about how to proceed in finding Cooper? After 39 years, there is no longer any point in waiting for someone's dog to drag something home. Writing e-mails may be fun, but it doesn't seem to be making much progress in resolving this matter. I personally doubt that Cooper will be found while we are parked at our computers. Robert

If it's lined with tin foil, the government's satellite based thought detectors wouldn't be able to get a reading on Cooper. I wear one at all times. Robert, why would you need a "special" metal detector? Let's fly a P3C (update 3) with a proton based magnetometer over the area at 100 ft. We'll know where every rusty nail lies. 377 377, Please arrange for the P3C at your earliest convenience. I assume you will also pay for the related expenses, which shouldn't be more than a million or two. Robert

Why would anyone ever need a "cloth helmet"? I'll tell you; they don't -- ever. An experienced skydiver would know that. If you assume DB Cooper was an experienced skydiver, you can pretty much rule out the idea of a "cloth helmet." Besides which, that's something not in evidence anyway. You may have a point with goggles, but they could just as easily fit into an inside jacket pocket. Quade, I guess I have spent to much time in open cockpit airplanes. In my limited jumping experience in the early 1960s, I always wore a hard helmet and goggles. And the hard helmet usually had some new dents in the back, caused by the riser hardware, after each jump. Robert

377, I must say that I agree with you that no reserve in this instance is better than a jury-rigged reserve. On the hardware, we have to look at all the angles. But this may require a custom made metal detector to have any value in this matter. Robert

Probably buried with the NB-6 some where out there. Just a thought... depending on which hardware was on the reserve it would be possible to hook it to the harness of the NB-6 by sliding the webbing into the snaps. I can show ya if you are interested.. I have a "few" old harness and containers.. and a few different belly mount reserves in the shed

What could be in Cooper's paper bag? One thing that he could have foreseen the need for is a cloth helmet and goggles. They wouldn't take up much space at all. Robert

Vicki, Have you or others considered the possibility that he went to Canada? Robert

Vicki, Has anyone, law enforcement types or otherwise, tried to trace this Buick automobile? It would seem to represent a possible source of cash for him unless he cleaned out some bank accounts before leaving. If he didn't have the title to the car with him, he would probably try to sell it to an operation that would part it out. The car could be traced if he registered it elsewhere or sold it to someone who did. Robert

Up until a few years ago, Washington Air National Guard guys used to roar through the valleys and mountains of rural Washington, especially in the Cascades. I have seen them do this many times while out hiking. Sometimes they would do stuff that resembled the scene in the film 'Independence Day'. That is, the part where Will Smith and the other pilot are being chased through the hills by the two alien craft. Not quite so dramatic, but these ANG guys liked to fly low and fast...and LOUD. Then there was an accident where a pilot crashed. Then another. And then they pretty much quit doing that stuff. I remember once on a hike near Glacier Peak where two of them came roaring up the canyon so close to us that you could almost read the names on the cockpits. We first heard this sound, then it got louder, and then they rushed past us and they were gone. I remember thinking it DID look a bit dangerous. It's possible that some people in remote areas of Southwest Washington heard these planes from time to time. You should have one that is supersonic pass over your head at less than 100 ft.... you hear nothing at all and then BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM Amazon, They can scare the daylights out of you (in this case me) even though they are miles away. A few decades ago, I was headed north from the Palmdale, CA area to Bishop, CA in a glider. About mid-afternoon I was over the Sierra Nevadas on the west side of Owens Valley and just below a scattered cloud layer. I happened to notice through the gaps in the clouds that there was a contrail headed south and on the east side of the White Mountains which bound the Owens Valley on its east side. I knew that there was a high altitude USAF test area located where that airplane was flying. I also thought to myself that the airplane I was looking at was really moving along. But after watching it for several seconds, I had to get back to the business of getting to Bishop. Within a minute or two, the loudest noise I have ever heard in any aircraft caused me to practically jump out of my skin. In a glider a boom like that means bad news, such as the wings coming off. But in a couple of seconds I realized that everything was still under control and that had to be a sonic boom from the aircraft that I had seen which was probably 10+ miles away. I made it to Bishop later that afternoon with the new knowledge that sonic booms can be heard from quite a distance in gliders and probably in other airplanes as well. Robert

Somewhere within the last few days, someone posted a link to one of Snowmann's post in which he quoted Ckret as, in turn, quoting the Boeing pilot who flew the stair door down test as saying something like "the aircraft cannot take off with the stairs down AND LOCKED (emphasis mine)". That is probably what the Boeing people were passing to the NWA 305 crew. And it would indeed be impossible to rotate the aircraft with a tail skid like that. So the whole point appears to be a mis-communication between Cooper and Rataczak. Rataczak had been told that the aircraft could not take off with the stairs down and Cooper obviously meant that he wanted the stairs unlocked and only slightly down for the take off. And the aircraft probably could take off with the stairs unlocked and only slightly down. Or to put it another way, this is a non-issue. Just a confused couple of fellows thinking they were talking about the same thing when they weren't. Robert

Robert, Earlier today in message #19344, 377 states that Boeing did conduct and document flight tests related to the stairs being down. He also states that this information was not placed in ANY airline flight manuals. Consequently, the NWA flight crew did not have this information in their manuals. However, they did get some information and assurances from Boeing personnel by radio that the aircraft could be flown with the stairs down. The NWA flight crew never saw the check list given above, at least until after the flight. Robert

As pointed out previously, Cooper told Tina immediately after agreeing to take off with the stairs up that he knew the airplane could take off with them down. It was the NWA flight crew that didn't have any experience or knowledge about taking off with the stairs down as well as having the stairs down in flight. While still on the ground in Seattle, the NWA flight crew stated that Cooper seemed to have a lot of information on the 727. Where are LaPoint, McNally, and McCoy today? Where is Cooper today? I'll bet only the second question does not have a definitive answer. Another question. The first three fellows have two capital letters in their names while Cooper only has one. Is that significant? Robert

Sluggo, Perhaps the most telling evidence of authorship is the following. I bought a used copy of the book on the Internet and it came with Thomas K. Worcester's autograph on the title page. Nothing from Himmelsbach even though he is listed as the senior author. Robert

He was an engineer and the schematics to the Boeings where ALL over the place prior to the Boeing 727 being produced. I have no idea what his involvement was or why he had the schematics to the Boeings. He did act for 6 yrs as a consultant for Boeing to the Army. This he told and wrote to me...but, I am under the impression this was in the 50's and before the Boeing 727 was actually produced. The 727 would have been on the drawing board - prior to the actual production. Jo, To the best of my knowledge, the only Boeing aircraft that the Army had an interest in were the helicopters produced by Boeing Vertol in the Philadelphia, PA area. Helicopters and 727s are from entirely different worlds. Robert Wrong! Didn't I use the word schematics? Do you really believe the Army and Airforce were NOT interested in the development of these planes. Remember the aft stairwell had multiple uses...think! When Boeing designed the 727 - it was conceived with multiple uses...but, became idea to use getting into smaller airports, but with a pay load. Think about the origin of the design and why the military would be interested... Jo, Come in out of the cold and warm yourself a bit. The Boeing 727 was designed to transport passengers and cargo at intermediate distances where it would not be economical to use the Boeing 707. Translated from the Greek, this means that it was an economic decision that led to the 727. Boeing does not make money designing airplanes, but it does makes money building and selling those airplanes. Boeing essentially bet the entire company on the designing and success of the original Boeing 707. The total 727 market for the Army and USAF probably did not exceed 10 airplanes. And the USAF would probably bomb Fort Lewis before consenting to the Army having a 727. The 727 market for Other Government Organizations probably did not exceed 5 airplanes. But thank God for the world's airlines because they bought about 1500+ 727s. While Boeing may have modified some 727s for various organizations, it was the airlines (and us the passengers) that made the 727 an economic success. Would you please define what you mean by the word "schematics"? The manner in which you use that word seems to imply that you have a new definition for it. Robert

Source please. Somewhere I read or heard that remark prior to Blevins making this post. Perhaps it was in a prior post he himself made. Maybe it is in some of the research material I have, but at one time I have READ this statement before. Jo, Blevins didn't make this post. You can't blame everything on him. Robert (or Robert99 if you look closely)