Robert99

Probably buried with the NB-6 some where out there. Just a thought... depending on which hardware was on the reserve it would be possible to hook it to the harness of the NB-6 by sliding the webbing into the snaps. I can show ya if you are interested.. I have a "few" old harness and containers.. and a few different belly mount reserves in the shed

What could be in Cooper's paper bag? One thing that he could have foreseen the need for is a cloth helmet and goggles. They wouldn't take up much space at all. Robert

Vicki, Have you or others considered the possibility that he went to Canada? Robert

Vicki, Has anyone, law enforcement types or otherwise, tried to trace this Buick automobile? It would seem to represent a possible source of cash for him unless he cleaned out some bank accounts before leaving. If he didn't have the title to the car with him, he would probably try to sell it to an operation that would part it out. The car could be traced if he registered it elsewhere or sold it to someone who did. Robert

Up until a few years ago, Washington Air National Guard guys used to roar through the valleys and mountains of rural Washington, especially in the Cascades. I have seen them do this many times while out hiking. Sometimes they would do stuff that resembled the scene in the film 'Independence Day'. That is, the part where Will Smith and the other pilot are being chased through the hills by the two alien craft. Not quite so dramatic, but these ANG guys liked to fly low and fast...and LOUD. Then there was an accident where a pilot crashed. Then another. And then they pretty much quit doing that stuff. I remember once on a hike near Glacier Peak where two of them came roaring up the canyon so close to us that you could almost read the names on the cockpits. We first heard this sound, then it got louder, and then they rushed past us and they were gone. I remember thinking it DID look a bit dangerous. It's possible that some people in remote areas of Southwest Washington heard these planes from time to time. You should have one that is supersonic pass over your head at less than 100 ft.... you hear nothing at all and then BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM Amazon, They can scare the daylights out of you (in this case me) even though they are miles away. A few decades ago, I was headed north from the Palmdale, CA area to Bishop, CA in a glider. About mid-afternoon I was over the Sierra Nevadas on the west side of Owens Valley and just below a scattered cloud layer. I happened to notice through the gaps in the clouds that there was a contrail headed south and on the east side of the White Mountains which bound the Owens Valley on its east side. I knew that there was a high altitude USAF test area located where that airplane was flying. I also thought to myself that the airplane I was looking at was really moving along. But after watching it for several seconds, I had to get back to the business of getting to Bishop. Within a minute or two, the loudest noise I have ever heard in any aircraft caused me to practically jump out of my skin. In a glider a boom like that means bad news, such as the wings coming off. But in a couple of seconds I realized that everything was still under control and that had to be a sonic boom from the aircraft that I had seen which was probably 10+ miles away. I made it to Bishop later that afternoon with the new knowledge that sonic booms can be heard from quite a distance in gliders and probably in other airplanes as well. Robert

Somewhere within the last few days, someone posted a link to one of Snowmann's post in which he quoted Ckret as, in turn, quoting the Boeing pilot who flew the stair door down test as saying something like "the aircraft cannot take off with the stairs down AND LOCKED (emphasis mine)". That is probably what the Boeing people were passing to the NWA 305 crew. And it would indeed be impossible to rotate the aircraft with a tail skid like that. So the whole point appears to be a mis-communication between Cooper and Rataczak. Rataczak had been told that the aircraft could not take off with the stairs down and Cooper obviously meant that he wanted the stairs unlocked and only slightly down for the take off. And the aircraft probably could take off with the stairs unlocked and only slightly down. Or to put it another way, this is a non-issue. Just a confused couple of fellows thinking they were talking about the same thing when they weren't. Robert

Robert, Earlier today in message #19344, 377 states that Boeing did conduct and document flight tests related to the stairs being down. He also states that this information was not placed in ANY airline flight manuals. Consequently, the NWA flight crew did not have this information in their manuals. However, they did get some information and assurances from Boeing personnel by radio that the aircraft could be flown with the stairs down. The NWA flight crew never saw the check list given above, at least until after the flight. Robert

As pointed out previously, Cooper told Tina immediately after agreeing to take off with the stairs up that he knew the airplane could take off with them down. It was the NWA flight crew that didn't have any experience or knowledge about taking off with the stairs down as well as having the stairs down in flight. While still on the ground in Seattle, the NWA flight crew stated that Cooper seemed to have a lot of information on the 727. Where are LaPoint, McNally, and McCoy today? Where is Cooper today? I'll bet only the second question does not have a definitive answer. Another question. The first three fellows have two capital letters in their names while Cooper only has one. Is that significant? Robert

Sluggo, Perhaps the most telling evidence of authorship is the following. I bought a used copy of the book on the Internet and it came with Thomas K. Worcester's autograph on the title page. Nothing from Himmelsbach even though he is listed as the senior author. Robert

He was an engineer and the schematics to the Boeings where ALL over the place prior to the Boeing 727 being produced. I have no idea what his involvement was or why he had the schematics to the Boeings. He did act for 6 yrs as a consultant for Boeing to the Army. This he told and wrote to me...but, I am under the impression this was in the 50's and before the Boeing 727 was actually produced. The 727 would have been on the drawing board - prior to the actual production. Jo, To the best of my knowledge, the only Boeing aircraft that the Army had an interest in were the helicopters produced by Boeing Vertol in the Philadelphia, PA area. Helicopters and 727s are from entirely different worlds. Robert Wrong! Didn't I use the word schematics? Do you really believe the Army and Airforce were NOT interested in the development of these planes. Remember the aft stairwell had multiple uses...think! When Boeing designed the 727 - it was conceived with multiple uses...but, became idea to use getting into smaller airports, but with a pay load. Think about the origin of the design and why the military would be interested... Jo, Come in out of the cold and warm yourself a bit. The Boeing 727 was designed to transport passengers and cargo at intermediate distances where it would not be economical to use the Boeing 707. Translated from the Greek, this means that it was an economic decision that led to the 727. Boeing does not make money designing airplanes, but it does makes money building and selling those airplanes. Boeing essentially bet the entire company on the designing and success of the original Boeing 707. The total 727 market for the Army and USAF probably did not exceed 10 airplanes. And the USAF would probably bomb Fort Lewis before consenting to the Army having a 727. The 727 market for Other Government Organizations probably did not exceed 5 airplanes. But thank God for the world's airlines because they bought about 1500+ 727s. While Boeing may have modified some 727s for various organizations, it was the airlines (and us the passengers) that made the 727 an economic success. Would you please define what you mean by the word "schematics"? The manner in which you use that word seems to imply that you have a new definition for it. Robert

Source please. Somewhere I read or heard that remark prior to Blevins making this post. Perhaps it was in a prior post he himself made. Maybe it is in some of the research material I have, but at one time I have READ this statement before. Jo, Blevins didn't make this post. You can't blame everything on him. Robert (or Robert99 if you look closely)

377 is betting on the Tease. It's a safe bet with this horse. Jo, I'm betting that there are no dots to connect in the first place. It's all between your ears. Robert

He was an engineer and the schematics to the Boeings where ALL over the place prior to the Boeing 727 being produced. I have no idea what his involvement was or why he had the schematics to the Boeings. He did act for 6 yrs as a consultant for Boeing to the Army. This he told and wrote to me...but, I am under the impression this was in the 50's and before the Boeing 727 was actually produced. The 727 would have been on the drawing board - prior to the actual production. Jo, To the best of my knowledge, the only Boeing aircraft that the Army had an interest in were the helicopters produced by Boeing Vertol in the Philadelphia, PA area. Helicopters and 727s are from entirely different worlds. Robert

One of my skydiving friends was a paratrooper (82d) and he said the C 141 spoiler's main function was to prevent exiting jumpers from being slammed against the fuselage. It didn't do much to prevent tumbling or other instabilities. I am finding nothing about a DC 9 skydive load in the 70s. I always thought the 727 at WFFC in Quincy was the first US use of a jet airliner for skydiving. 377 We are basically saying the same thing about the need for a spoiler. The fuselage boundary layer probably extends less than a foot from the fuselage skin at the rear of the aircraft. Outside that foot you have the full blown free stream velocity. That is, in the space of a foot, or very short distance, the wind velocity that the jumper would be exposed to goes from essentially zero to free stream velocity (which is about 140 knots or so for static line jumps from a C-141). Without the spoiler, the jumper would be blown to the rear in very close proximity to, and maybe in contact with, the fuselage skin. The spoiler increases the dead air area and permits the jumper to get further from the fuselage skin before he hits the full free stream velocity. Robert

Side door DC9 sport jumps? Give us a source. Never heard of this. The story about tumbling at 10,000 feet seems odd. If you can stay stable at 20,000 ft it shouldn't be a problem at 10,000 ft. 377 This may have been at a national meet in the Seattle area shortly after the Cooper jump. The lady who told me the story said the FBI came out and talked to all of them about the Cooper hi-jacking. And the consensus of opinion among the skydivers reportedly was that it was unlikely he survived the jump. I have mis-placed this lady's e-mail address but will see if I can get in touch with her one way or the other. I'll post additional information if I can get it. Robert

Farflung, The wind will be more of a problem with the side doors than the rear stairs. You have probably seen pictures of a "spoiler" being rotated outward into the airstream, and just upstream of the exit door, on C-141s prior to static line jumps. The same may be true with C-130 aircraft. The spoiler reduces the possibility of the jumpers tumbling. There are other ways and means that things can be moved around in the back of an aircraft. And your hands and feet are probably acquainted with them. In the Cooper matter, maybe he tripped over the money bag and fell down the stairs. Alternate explanations are available. Robert

Robert, Why did Boeing do tests on lowering the stairs in flight? Who were the tests done for? I believe that 377 stated some time back that there is nothing in the Boeing 727 manuals about the stairs being opened in flight. Robert

Jo, If Duane's brother was an advisor to Boeing, what was his area of expertise? Robert

Source please. Slight correction. He asked the question while in the act of purchasing the ticket. See Himmelsbach's book, page 13, fifth line from the top. As quoted in the book: "O.K. Give me a one-way ticket. That's a 727 isn't it?" Robert

Well...maybe his best friend was a mechanic for NWA between 1949-1968?

Dahrlin.. I will jump from ANYTHING as long as I think I can survive it

True. Even state govts are exempt from FAA regs. That exemption allowed the lone remaining airworthy surplus C 133 to fly state cargo in Alaska long long after the USAF retired them to the Tucson boneyards as structurally unsound. The owners slipped in a little North Slope oil rig cargo work too, verrry lucrative as the C 133 could carry things no other plane could operating on gravel airstrips. Hey, a bush pilot's gotta make living right? Ever see a C 133? I did. I watched the last flyable example land at Travis AFB a couple of years ago to be put into their base museum collection. H U G E. Like a Herc on steroids. I think you could have launched a 400 way from a single C 133. The surplus planes sold for about $30,000 in DOD auctions. They had vibration problems so severe that you could have a crewman stand on a sheet of cardboard during cruise and easily pull it out from underneath their feet if done slowly. That lead to fatigue, skin cracking and fatal explosive decompression events. No wonder the FAA opposed their use in civil aviation. 377 Several decades ago, two or three other fellows and I had the privilege of having lunch with a USAF pilot who had experience with the C-133 and other large aircraft. This pilot said that the C-133 was the most flexible aircraft that he had ever flown and that he had encountered major problems (the same problems that had caused the loss of some of the aircraft) but had managed to work his way through those problems. A few years later, this same pilot retired from the USAF and worked for the manufacturer of the B-1. He was killed in the crash of one of the early B-1s when the crew ejection capsule (no individual ejection seats in that particular B-1) hit the ground before its parachute was fully deployed. Robert

It is my understanding that in 1971 only the 727 could lower it rear stairs in flight. Cooper may not have known that this was true only for the 727 but he definitely knew that the 727 could do it. After he purchased his ticket, Cooper double checked with the ticket agent that a 727 was actually making that flight that day (i.e., no substitute aircraft). So Cooper was specifically looking for a 727. The 727 was known to be jumpable, by a limited number of people, in 1971 and Cooper was one of them. Some skydivers also jumped from a DC-9 in the early 1970s but they went out the side door. One of those skydivers, a lady, told me they jumped from 20,000 feet and she didn't have any problems until she got down to about 10,000 feet at which time she started to tumble out of control. My point about the 727 rear stairs control panel is that if you are going to drop people and cargo down those stairs on a daily operational basis, you want to make sure that you can get things open and shut on a reliable basis. Robert

If a US Government agency was responsible for ordering the modifications and flight test program for the 727 stairs, then an FAA STC would probably not be required or issued unless it was specifically so stated in the contract paperwork. Or to put it another way, when push comes to shove, the Federal Air Regulations do not apply to USAF, USN, and USA aircraft. Robert

Amazon, If you were at Wright-Patterson in the early 1970s, you undoubtedly were looking at the pre-production C-141s which were used in the original flight test program. Since they were not in the production configuration, they were sent to W-P and other such installations for use in various test programs rather than to operational units. I don't remember what specifically happened to the prototype C-141 (the first off the line), but the number 2 aircraft off the line was at W-P in 1976 based on my eyeball reading of the data plate in the cockpit area. I was at the Air Force Flight Dynamics Laboratory at Wright Field from 1967 to 1978. While I was a civilian engineer, our military pilots had to take recurrent survival training periodically over on the Pat side of the operation. Were you the one who dumped them into the pond, or small lake, that was in the southeast corner of Patterson Field?