Robert99

LOL, I have to agree with you there. But see that's also part of my point. If that dumb ass could get away with it for a few days until he was caught..... And where he jumped has some nice clear areas to land in, but there's a lot of trees and very thick woods surrounding any open space of land in that area. He got very lucky he didn't end up impaled on something. As far as his gold goes, who knows. Why did he even mention it? If he had the gold I could still see him doing it though because he wanted people to think he was dead. I haven't been down there since the news released that part. I figure there's people stomping and trespassing all over the place looking for it and it's probably not there. Probably an excuse to say I had it but I don't anymore and it's really somewhere else and he'll grab it 10 years from now when he gets out of prison. Obviously D.B. had his crime planned out way better than the dufus jumping out of his plane over the state I live in. Speaking of determining a jump point how hard would that have been in Cooper's case? If you know the plane is going to be flying from point A to point B at a certain speed I would think that one could figure it out. The "fly right under 200" has always intrigued me. The plane could have gone slower than that making for an easier exit but yet he wanted right under 200, why? As I recall it, he didn't mention speed as such but specified 15 degrees of flaps and the landing gear down. It was the NWA performance group in Minneapolis that told the crew that an indicated airspeed of 170 knots would produce the best range for the aircraft. They would have considered such things as the gross weight of the aircraft, the winds and atmospheric conditions, as well as the aircraft configuration. Cooper apparently wanted to jump shortly after leaving Seattle. However, he didn't get his wish on that point. There was nothing that he could have had on his person in 1971 that would have produced any meaningful information about his location while he was on the aircraft. Basically, he probably could not have known his position to within a radius of about 20 miles at the time he actually jumped. I agree with your earlier point that he probably had an assistant somewhere along the way to help his escape. Robert

JCW1966, Marcus Schrenker was dumb and is now living proof that sometimes the Almighty gives a special break to idiots and drunks. He could and did determine his jump point from his aircraft navigational instruments. He neglected to consider the increase in drag that the opened cabin door would cause after his jump and that resulted in the aircraft crashing just short of the Gulf of Mexico rather than in it. Also, he did not anticipate that his aircraft, now flying on autopilot, would be intercepted by military aircraft that could determine that the windshield was not broken (as he had told ATC) and that the cabin door was ajar. If he had had 50 pounds of gold, I don't think he would have made the flight in the first place. He was just trying to run out on the "life" that he had created. For people like Schrenker, it usually comes down to money, liquor, and women (not necessairly in that order). And Schrenker apparently cut a wide swath with all three. Crime does not pay (at least as Schrenker was doing it). Boom! Boom! Robert

Jo, with all due respect, just exactly what does a chase plane sound like? How did they know it was a chase plane(s)? About the only thing from the Seattle ARTCC transcripts that can be believed is that the airliner was reporting that it was level at 10,000 feet as it passed through the Portland/Vancouver area. And that altitude would put it above three broken cloud layers and maybe an additional complete cloud layer (undercast) according to the FBI released weather reports for the Orchards area (and those reports seem to be correct). Further, there is not one bleeping fact to support the idea that the airliner passed over the Battleground VORTAC (which was known as the Portland VORTAC at that time) or east of the BTG VORTAC. In fact, going over or east of the BTG VORTAC doesn't make sense in the first. Such a route simply does not pass the smell test. Robert

For you 727 pilots that have experience with the 727-051 model at night in light icing conditions, how do check for airframe icing? When you turn the wing icing lights on can you visually check the wing from the cockpit or do you have to go to the cabin and look out the passenger windows? Is icing visible around the cockpit windows? Is there a source at this point in time for identifying the hardware, and its metallic composition, as it was used in 1970 and earlier for the NB-6 and NB-8 parachutes? Can similiar hardware still be purchased? Robert

Well Mr. J. Christ, please forgive my failure to recognize You. However, I didn't expect the Second Coming to be like this.

Mr. NexusOfCivility, You should visit the FBI's government site and note the information about their asking for public assistance and their discussion of the Cooper hijacking. FBI names are mentioned. A visit to Sluggo's web site would provide you with access to just about all information on the Cooper hijacking that is in the public domain. What is it in your background that makes you feel qualified to disparage Jo Weber and Robert Blevins? Jo Weber, Robert Blevins, and others have fully disclosed their backgrounds. What is yours? Be strong, Mr. NexusOfCivility. Robert Nicholson

Thanks for the links. I have visited both and it looks like at least one of them may get the job done. I'll do an indepth checkout of both sites. It is that horizontal component of motion and the atmospheric density that makes the problem complicated and requires an iterative approach. In case anyone is interested, early last year I calculated the Portland atomspheric density that existed at the time of Cooper's jump. Corrections were made for the below standard temperature, above standard pressure, and for the high humidity. The end result was that the Portland atmospheric DENSITY at the time of the jump was slightly above the standard given in the 1962 U.S. Standard Atmosphere. In addition, I have estimated the drag coefficient times reference area (CD x A) values for two jumper positions that should represent the slowest and fastest free fall conditions. Robert

Does anyone know of information existing in the skydiving community for predicting the forward travel of a jumper after exiting the aircraft and before deploying (or not deploying) his canopy? Assuming Cooper did not deploy a canopy, his landing location would be several miles from his point of seperation from the aircraft. Or does anyone, presumably academics, have access to computer software and hardware that is capable of computing this information? The computation requires an iterative type program and is rather complex. Robert

Hi, right back. Please elaborate. Robert

Robert, We actually agree on something I think. Despite the statements in Himmelsbach's book, there is no actual evidence to support the idea that weather was a major factor in this hijacking. Indeed there were clouds and some rain and icing at altitude, but that was just another day at the office. Robert

Robert, You have it backwards. A REAL investigation determines the data points and then plots the curve. Otherwise, you have the curve (or theory) determining which data points are accepted or rejected and thus driving the investigation. Admittedly, there are instances when some data points must be rejected for one reason or another but that is the exception rather than the rule. But valid data points must be the driving force in any meaningful investigation. Robert

This is a perfectly valid point. Blevin's hypothesis - that it was meant to be found earlier - is also a reasonable one (in my opinion). If you want it to be found, you do not throw something as small as a hand full of money in the Columbia River, much less bury it somewhere. Within a couple of days of the hijacking, Cooper would have known that his FBI estimated landing area was wrong and that he didn't have much to fear from them. So he would plant any clues in an area where he didn't land such as the place where the FBI was looking. But I am one of those who subscribes to the theory that Cooper died within one minute of separating from the aircraft. That is, before 8:20 PM PST on November 24, 1971 Cooper had Met His Maker. Robert

Jo, After getting away with the money for 7+ years, why would Cooper or anyone else throw money in the river in 1979? If Cooper was alive in 1979 then he was basically home free. And why would he throw it in a location where it would end up at Tina Bar since that is not where he was thought to have landed and the find would only reactivate the invetigation. Robert

The claim that Cooper threw money in the river or buried some at Tina Bar just doesn't pass the smell test. And since it took 8+ years to find it, it didn't fool anyone initially. There is credible evidence that fragments of some bills were found a couple of feet under the sand. To me, this suggests that the money deposition at Tina Bar was a repeatable event and that, if true, means that Cooper probably landed on solid ground near Tina Bar and stayed in that location for a period of years. Robert

TDG, Welcome and you have your work cut out for you. "Facts" are hard to come by in this matter and there are about 20+ versions of the facts for every item that is discussed. May I suggest that you visit Sluggo's web page and, for instance, compare the Air Traffic Control transcripts from the Seattle ATC Center with those from the Oakland ATC Center. You will rapidly come to the conclusion that the Seattle ATC transcripts have been "sanitized" after the 1971 hijacking, and probably after the money was found at Tina Bar in 1980. Apparently after the money was found, some of the facts were changed, or deleted, so as to not contradict someone's theory and the flight path was the main item changed. Consequently, there is no agreement as to the actual flight path in the Portland area. And careful checking into radar data will eliminate it as a meaningful tool for determining the flight path. Having said that, there is no reason whatsoever at this time for dismissing the possibility that the airliner actually flew directly over Tina Bar. Some people disagree with this possibility rather strongly. So please act as a defense attorney in this matter and don't accept any alleged "fact" at its face value. If you want to act as a prosecutor, Jo Weber would probably be delighted to have you assist in proving that her late husband, Duane Weber, was D. B. Cooper (although he wasn't). Again, welcome. Robert Nicholson

If KC made off with the entire $200,000, which he didn't, and ran it into about $800,000 in 22 years, he had finally found his calling. He should have been a financial consultant and he could have given lectures on the side to teach other people how to rip off the IRS. He also apparently didn't like to spend money either and decided to just leave all of it to other people. Robert

Thanks Sluggo. In her original message, Jo was apparently referring to streets in the Vancouver area and I thought she was referring to towns east of the Cascades. In any event, the baloon bomb I saw was near Wenatchee and it was shot down by P-38s that were based somewhere southeast of there, probably in the Yakima and Hanford area. It should be remembered that in early 1945, Hanford was not a familiar name. That would change with the events that following August. Robert

Jo, I cannot locate Hockinson on a map either. But you had mentioned the balloon bombs and Cold Creek may have been the name of the area where the P-38 fighters were based that shot down the one I saw. I believe this air base was in the Yakima and Hanford area but don't have any better information on it. Robert

I should have said about 5 or 10 thousand feet above ground level. Another good but obscure book all about Japanese attacks on the US West Coast during WW2: Silent Siege, lots of tech detail about the Fouga ballons and also about sub carried seaplane attack aircraft. http://www.amazon.com/Silent-Siege-III-Civilians-Documentary/dp/0936738731 Most balloons were made of doped paper. Some were assembled as class projects by school children. Some "scout" balloons had HF telemetry with a vacuum tube transmitter! The Fougas (incindiary balloons) had an ingenious system for automatically releasing sand ballast to maintain altitude. The balloons were supposed to set the Pacific NW forests ablaze but the only time the trans Pacific winds really favored the operation was winter when the forests were too wet to ignite and support a sustained burn. The program was a huge failure as a weapon. Some UFO debunkers thought the Roswell alien was a mummified Japanese midget found long after the war. Their theory was that the Japanese experimented with manned balloons to insert spies and saboteurs onto the US mainland. Small pilots would be chosen to minimize payload. Roswell crash debris was consistent with a balloon and it turned out it (according to the USAF) was a cold war balloon project carrying an instrument payload to monitor atomic tests, Project Mogul. The alien story appears to be urban myth. So does the Duane as a Ranger trained jumper story. 377 My understanding is that the balloon bomb project itself was a direct result of the insults to the Empire that resulted from the Doolittle raid in April 1942. The Japanese responded in kind as best they could but it took them about two years to get the balloons developed and most of them were launched in 1944 and 1945. Robert

I should have said about 5 or 10 thousand feet above ground level.

Jo, There is a book on the balloon bombs that you might be interested in. The title is "Balloon Bomb Attacks on North America", by Robert C. Mikesh, ISBN 0-8168-3950-6. I saw one of these balloon bombs near Wenatchee, WA in 1945. It was at about 5 or 10 feet above the ground level and being circled by a couple of P-38s which shot it down when it drifted to a more unpopulated area. Have you ever heard of Cold Creek, WA in the 1945 period? Robert

What's behind Door Number 2? Come on Monty Monster ... Will someone please get Marilyn von what's her name straightened out on this Monty Hall Problem? She repeated the same mistake on a similiar problem that appeared in her column last Sunday, September 26, in Parade Magazine.

That bag is definitely not a "brief case". I have a couple of brief cases from the early 1970s and the largest one I could find at that time has slightly less than one-half cubic foot volume. What would KC need a nav bag for since he wasn't doing any navigation? The bag looks like the type of thing that the cabin crew members would use on an overnight trip to carry a single change of clothes. The cockpit crew members would usually carry a nav bag plus an overnight type piece of luggage. Robert

I have been involved in some DNA testing for genealogical purposes. The short answer to your question is that DNA can definitely help narrow down the pool of potential suspects. If the most comprehensive type of testing is conducted, it might be able to make a connection with a reasonably close relative of Cooper. Assuming, of course, that the DNA matches someone that is currently in law enforcement data bases or that of someone who volunteers for a DNA test. Robert

I owned an NB-6 parachute until sometime in the fall of 1971. The NB-6 is unusual in several respects. The shroud lines stopped at the hem of the canopy and tapes were used over the canopy instead of shroud lines. This resulted in a smaller container being necessary and thus the parachute was more adaptable to being used in cramped cockpits (such as the sailplane I used it in). Being a conical canopy, the canopy could not be stretched out flat on a hangar floor or instance. Further, the pilot chute was unusual in that the bottom of the pilot chute assembly had a "stud" which stuck out the top of the pilot chute when it was compressed. This stud fit into either the second or third stud holes from the top of the container and went through both the underlying and overlying container flaps. The other three studs fit into only the top container flap and the rip cord pins fit into them in the normal manner. For the stud attached to the pilot chute, the rip cord pin was inserted in the normal manner and that meant that the pilot chute was attached to the container and could not be released from the container until that rip cord pin had been pulled out. If the pilot chute rip cord pin was not pulled, the parachute could not open. In my opinion, the NB-6 was not suited for skydiving in the first place. A modification to that canopy would be more difficult and the harness was an "X" type, rather than the usual "H" type, which would complicate attaching a reserve chute. In addition, the NB-6 had a price tag of about twice the standard 28 foot chute due to its being desirable for use as an emergency chute. So if Cossy managed to put a 28 foot flat canopy into th NB-6 container, he must have been a glutton for punishment. Why bother messing up a good NB-6 when there were plenty of other $40 28 foot flat canopies that did not exceed the performance of the 26 foot conical canopy? Robert