Farflung

Here’s part 2 of the DB Cooper podcast with some talk about exit speeds: http://www.orhistory.com/orhistory.com/Kick__Ass__Oregon__History/Entries/2011/11/15_Kick_Ass_Oregon_History_Vol_3_7__DB_Cooper_Part_Two.html If nothing else, it is nice to hear some talk from a group of people who lack the self important, verbose and inaccurate diction which has filled this thread like PCBs in a Mexico City river. The salmon producing diamonds by eating twenty dollar bills is a new ‘known fact’. I enjoyed this pant-less romp through the many theories and ‘personalities’ associated with this story replete with data guardians, self proclaimed experts and the ever so slightly delusional. Party on Dan! Party on Farf!

Who says history can’t be fun? Well everyone actually….. but here is a different approach: http://www.orhistory.com/orhistory.com/Kick__Ass__Oregon__History/Entries/2011/11/1_Kick_Ass_Oregon_History_Vol_3_6__DB_Cooper_Part_One.html Just click the little play (delta shaped) icon below the awesome color graphic of Cooper under canopy and listen in glorious, full color, 3-D audio. A very good production including Galen Cook, Geoffrey Gray and Ayn Rand… just kidding it was Ayn Dietrich.

Finally someone is pulling the board, made out of petrified wood, out of this subject’s ass. http://orhistory.com/orhistory.com/News/Entries/2011/10/19_PRESS_RELEASE__DB_COOPER_NIGHT_%40_MISSISSIPPI_STUDIOS.html What else could one expect from our own ‘Beaver State’ than a retrospective laced with pop-art about DB Cooper and his many sunglasses and one type of shoe. There will be a raffle which includes a fused glass platter and skinny black tie for some lucky winner to wear home or serve bourbon and sodas from. What a gas.

For all the ‘bleeding hearts’ who have said (over and over and over and over)…. ‘hey, what happened to innocent until proven guilty?’ Or…. those who claim that a person is pure until CONVICTED by a ‘jury of their peers’ - I have a few questions. WTF? OK, that was only one question, but if being sloppy with hyperbole while trying to save the world is a crime then I plead hunky, your honor. So who said the Cooper hijacking was the ONLY unsolved of its species? Hmmmm….???? Let’s look at a couple others, shall we? OK, let’s shall. On 22 February 1974 an innocent and freedom loving man named Samuel Byck was heinously and mercilessly shot to death (by his own hand) while gingerly holding a loaded pistol which was ALLEGEDLY used to kill the Co-pilot of Flight 523 and an airport security guard. As of 2011, no one has been convicted of air piracy, let alone the murder of two people associated with this flight. Why? The mystery remains UNSOLVED. OK so that wasn’t from the Seattle area so maybe they forgot or it was not in their jurisdiction. Then how does one explain this? On 2 June 1972, a Western Airlines flight from Seattle (naturally) was hijacked by Willy Holder (don’t judge) and Catherine Marie Kerkow. That’s right, Catherine Marie Kerkow who was last known to be residing in Cuba and just minding her own business. The FBI knows where she is, yet does nothing about this ‘solved’ hijacking? Puh-lllllleeeeeeeeasssse. Just a lil ‘ol reality check here.

Like I said Robert99, I never fully understood that ‘Root Mean Squared’ thing and simply look at drag and turbulence as ‘relatively proportional’ in my silly, stupid, decision making world. I let others parse everything down to sub-atomic levels where they can convince themselves that having a retractable plane that operates around 200 knots and 100 hours a year makes infinite sense. There is a great deal of demand for the things after all so I must be missing something here, but it’s not an extra three or four grand in insurance premiums and maintenance. I am willing to bet that those retracts on gliders don’t have any motors, hydraulics, emergency extension systems, manual cranks, relays, switches or even doors. Probably just a Johnson (not the type your thinking of hangdiver) bar and a good pull to retract with minimal weight added, if any. A sensible and rational feature in that case. I think some ‘sailplanes’ even come with motors, which I call an airplane. Just like categorizing seahorses that carry their young as males; nice try Mother Nature but it’s still a female seahorse. Humans have a similar subset that can be observed wandering malls across America dressed in Old Navy clothing with one of those ‘what the hell happed to me’ stares that conjure both sympathy and rage in a liberated man. I do realize these same Old Navy wearing, mall wanderers will parse what I just wrote to the sub-atomic level where they can feel secure in themselves again. One does what they have to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpw8tgUoAbk Good catch on the wing vortices hangdiver. I’m pretty sure that those jet engines aren’t counter-rotating but as everyone on this thread knows, those effects would be mitigated by the lack of asymmetric thrust therefore eliminating any concerns about a critical engine. As Robert99 adroitly pointed out, the turbulence from extended gear at Flight 305’s airspeed would be minimal since velocity is one of those ‘Root Mean Square’ equations that I never understood (too busy being cool). I realize that the drag landing gear produces below 200 knots is minimal but my penis demands a fully retractable system like those on Beech Bonanzas and Cessna Cardinals. Having a retractable plane makes me more manly manish on the macadam. It’s just my way of scent marking others on the airfield and letting them know who the Alpha Male Silverback is in this neck of the woods. Strange how the numbers of people participating in General Aviation for fun, keeps going down, I just can’t figure it out. Perhaps a better example of aerodynamic drag would be the ubiquitous US Postal Service and FedEx trucks that have the aerodynamics of a brick. Apparently at speeds below 25 MPH there is virtually no advantage to streamlining and these vehicles spend the vast majority of their life well below that. Where velocity becomes critical here is with the jets that FedEx utilizes to move parcels across the country making deliveries in just one day. Much the same way the Postal Service employees gun down co-workers and fellow citizens in a fit of seething rage barely contained during the decades long fermentation triggered by the realization of a squandered life spent sorting Harriet Carter and Publisher’s Clearing House catalogs while counting down the seconds till retirement and realizing the futility of it all. At least that’s my understanding of low velocity drag.

To ignore case studies and empirical data from numerous similar ‘events’ is truly baffling and astonishing. I guess people really do reinvent the wheel with great regularity and with equal impact as all the predecessors, in that their efforts are viewed as superfluous and irrelevant; except for the original discovery of course. No one even wants to guess how other hijackers selected their alias for some odd reason. The only conclusion (wild assed guess) I can come to is the knowledge that there is a definitive answer to the other examples and Cooper’s can remain an open ended (read parlor game) ‘mystery’ where a bunch of Walter Mittys can speak with faux authority. The latter is relatively easy to cobble together and groups of people can migrate and attend a ‘symposium’ where they will actually act like they want to be taken deadly seriously on open ended subject matter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLrr1-jwwNc So valued are their opinions that all of them just happen to be authors or owners of websites (code for massive douche bags) with even more evidence you can purchase (Visa, MasterCard, PayPal) and become ever more smarterest than ever on the subject. Gee whiz, I wonder how a ‘Learn to Skydive’ book written by a notorious WHUFFO would go over…. hmmmm…. I just don’t know. How did the crews know when Heady, McNally and LaPoint jumped their respective planes? Direct observation, pressure bump precisely measured by the FE or the distinct sound of someone yelling Geronimoooooooooo (cough, cough) oooooooooooo complete with fading Doppler Effect? I know what to expect for an answer to that question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg&feature=related That’s what makes ‘Junk Science’ so fun with GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out) ensuring a limitless cornucopia of crap data which can be mutated till it will finally support a predetermined solution (Cooper was a witch) garnished with false modesty and surprise. So what type and intensity of ‘pressure bump’ did the crews on Flight 239, Flight 800 and Flight 855 experience? I know, I know………… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYuGRm-6gII

The composite drawings have so many variations on the sunglasses. Were they Ray Ban-esque or more Paris Hilton-y with smaller lenses? So hard to tell when you are sitting next to the guy and staring right at them. Hmmmm….. guess I would suck just as bad and probably a hell of a lot more. But on the other end of the spectrum are the shoes. Everyone is so darned sure that they are loafers that the question is repeated time and time again about jumping with the things. Hmmmmm….. I wonder if there may (just may here, don’t go into sphincter lock over the suggestion) have been a little self fulfilling description going on here. He wore a business suit, black tie, white shirt and umm…. ahh…. Yeah businessman loafers. That’s it, he was wearing businessman shoes to go with his businessman tie, coat and shirt. Good enough for me.

So you may find out that the titanium shaving came from Hayden or Cossey through an act of transference or whatever. Back to square zero. If it turns out that neither of them ever touched titanium then the race continues with a search of aerospacey and biomedically based industries as some indicator of where that necktie had spent some of its existence. I’m sure a favorite company will be located and someone will remember a real squirrely guy that others secretly thought was Cooper but never mentioned before. Never mind the provenance of the necktie. Did Cooper buy the thing the day before? Why switch from a tie tack to a clasp? What was on the back of the tie? Doesn’t matter. One twenty dollar bill will nuke all other pursuits for what they have been which may be described as tangential under the most honorable of terms or pure BS in more realistic. Why are all the suspects suddenly associated with the machining of exotic metals? If a vane from an ostrich feather was discovered on the tie, how many suspects would suddenly be discovered to have a background performing as drag queens? If some DNA matches someone it is game over, no matter where they worked or what they normally dressed like. If some fingerprints match it will be the same thing. If it turns out Hayden supplied the chutes and they were identical, the sage selection of a superior rig should go out the window but it will still walk and even run a few miles without a head. Once these stories are hatched they don’t die easy.

What exactly are you suggesting airtwardo? That in the ‘Old West’ there were Airstream trailers, except they were made of wood? How could I be so blind? Now I feel kinda stupid suggesting that comic book cover. I was way off base. Sorry for the misunderstanding folks, my bad.

RobertMBlevins condescends: “Your claim is little better than VickiW's. Neither of you present any real evidence that points to your suspect as the hijacker.” As opposed to whom? Someone who is shorter and read a Dan Cooper Comic (written in French) on Shemya in 1951, wore a toupee till after the hijacking, spoke with the pilot during the hijacking and complained about his low wages I suppose. Well then get the cuffs officer. Those are some FACTS which were ALL verified by LIVING witnesses who testified under the most objective and academic of circumstances. It was RobertMBlevins who verified that the Cooper comic was seen in a day room, on Shemya in 1951. The witness was not steered or manipulated and the reporting was accurate. In fact there were two witnesses, a communications worker on Shemya and the Northwest Airlines historian who were quoted as having said this. Two people would not have made such a mistake, nope it is PUBLISHED fact that the comic existed in 1951. Who was the only person to claim that the pilot walked back to speak with Cooper after interviewing a live witness (the co-pilot)? That’s right it was RobertMBlevins again with Captain Scott looking around the cabin as if searching for a friend. Where did that come from? It is hard to tell. When it was first identified RobertMBlevins went into a hissy fit about copyright violations and how the information was stolen through diabolical means involving sophisticated software hacking. Or….. it was a link to RobertMBlevins own website where he had posted the incriminating prose. A link that he posted many, many times on this thread. Posted over and over and over to the point that if it was suggested again, a person would likely fall to their knees and begin to puke till there were chunks of mastodon meat in the bile. After many comments RobertMBlevins contacted Skipp about the alleged error and said that he thought Sluggos’s website (with the FAA transcripts) was in error but would call the Co-pilot before he went on vacation in Mexico. The Co-pilot confirmed that the transcripts were correct and NO ONE ever left the cockpit for the entire flight. Wow, that monster sure was hard to kill and would rise from the table again in a different form. The ‘latest’ explanation of how the Pilot was mistakenly thought to talk to Cooper was blamed on phone calls and emails along with never having met Skipp. Apparently when you don’t meet a person you can read their emails and listen to phone calls where they say “the pilots never left the cockpit” and actually read and hear “Captain Scott walked down the narrow aisle scanning the passengers as if looking for a friend, as not to alarm anyone”. Because sometimes ‘never left’ can mean – “Captain Scott sat next to Cooper and asked ‘What’s this about a bomb?’” As of now there are two conflicting reasons why the original data was treated like a headless corpse. The more simplistic answer would indicate that someone simply made up the episode because it sounds kinda boner-y and would make for better reading. Mel Wilson is a Federal fugitive missing and wanted (wanted by the ‘Man’) since September, 1971 and has not been heard of since. For all the champion researchers; how many people have escaped federal warrants for 30 or 40 years? Dozens, hundreds or as RobertMBlevins claims – tens of thousands? I simply don’t know but I did check the most wanted lists on the FBI and US Marshal’s websites and they don’t have two hundred combined. No crime went as far back as 1971 but there were some from the early 80’s so that indicates the list may not be as long as is being pushed presently. Additionally, many of the fugitives were foreign nationals who committed a crime then ran home to Mexico, Russia or wherever which would be more difficult for an American (except for Brazil a la Conforte). When a person is suggested with one unique attribute (missing and wanted since 1971) they are dismissed as ‘not enough evidence’? But another (code for Airstream user) who is too short (hard to tell height in a jet), allegedly wore a toupee (although not photo exists of this), was underpaid (earned more than the national average) and was on Shemya Island (bizarre, weird and freaky non sequitur) is an example of a viable suspect. Sure seems odd (code for NOT) how some people are so anxious to dismiss, eliminate and extinct other suspects or possibilities for some reason (read threat to their suspect).

As fully expected, when I asked about the source of McCoy’s, LaPoint’s and McNally’s alias there was no answer. None, not a one, nada, just tumbleweeds rolling down the main street in Cooperville. I was surprised by this considering the vast expertise on Columbia River, clamshell, dredging operations. Oh well, another mystery that will never be solved. But it was those tumbleweeds that had me recall a Western program from the 60’s called ‘The Rifleman’. Watch as he walks and mercilessly pumps round after round from his perfectly poised gun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtbdfypVy38 Oh dear, that was beastly, simply beastly. Then I remembered how pervasive that program had become. There were Rifleman lunchboxes (yeah, you took a lunch to school), BB guns (I’ve never known anyone to lose an eye) and comic books. I found an old (aren’t they all now?), Rifleman comic and without even trying noticed all sorts of clues sticking out at me. It’s so obvious when you can look at things critically and with intelligence. So it looks like another comic book is the potential name source for Cooper except this one was published right in the good ol’ USA. It sure doesn’t take much imagination to see it there taunting and mocking you for not noticing what has been in plain sight for over half a century.

I wore a clip-on tie for exactly two occasions in my life. First was for Sunday school as a kid, it was plaid and because my mother wanted to make sure I got my ass kicked on the way home, she added the extra bully appeal by making it a bow tie. So if you want your kid to be great in track, forget the Adidas, Puma and Reeboks and just buy a plaid, clip on, bow tie. You’re welcome. The second time was in the military. Yes sir we had to wear ties with our ‘Class A’ uniforms and with the next level down, which the powers that be decided to name - ‘Combo 2’. Fortunately they realized their blunder by skipping ‘Combo 3’ and going to the next logical uniform name of ‘Combo 4’. There, now I’m insane. Unlike the Sunday best, this tie was a single color and very close in design to Cooper’s tie. Thus I’ve generously shared my clip on experiences and what I associate with a single color tie. That’s right, Cooper didn’t want to get his ass kicked. Any other ideas?

Why can’t Reno get no respect? Everyone knows that Seattle has Sea Tac, LA has LAX, Chicago has O’Hare for airports but Reno is constantly humiliated and despised. Why? Don’t you think the Biggest Little City in the World would offer some access to the same world? Of course you would. Therefore it would only stand to reason that Reno would have an airport with a name worthy of being a worldwide attraction. Which it does. Introducing from 1970…. The Biggest Little Airport With An Unknown Name…. the final stop from Cooper’s hop…. the nearest concourse for a quick divorce…. “Reno International Airport” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg Yawwwwnnnnnnn.

No, but if you hum two or three cords, I’ll fake it (just like everyone else). Boom… tish. Thank you ladies and gentlemen. I’ll be appearing in the Tiki Hangar till Thanksgiving eve. Don’t forget to tip your waitresses and please, only one trip to the salad bar. Specials include B-52s and Kamikazes so why not order both and really get bombed tonight? Speaking of bombing, is this on? Hello…. Hello. I never wash ties either 377 and Tiecrafters are definitely the people to go to if you are a dapper jumper. I heard that they use a pure form of titanium to gently agitate the stains out while leaving the weave and pile unaffected. True story. So Cooper knew that Tina didn’t need no stinking cords to keep her in the plane? Hmmmm….. that actually strikes me as a little knowledge leaking out on his part.

Your pappy being Cooper would make sense hangdiver as I finally read the first bit of evidence that indicates Cooper was a jumper. I am surprised that no one has latched on to it like a remora to a manta ray’s belly by now. Could be an indication of just how lightly scanned this information is at this point since it is all viewed with a jaundiced eye by everyone. The same sentence also indicated that Cooper did know that the 727 was jumpable as he betrayed some experience on the subject. But since the lack of ‘tells’ have been dismissed in the past, their presence with new information must be dismissed also. Oh well, fuhgeddaboudit.

I’ve decided to quit this swimming upstream stuff where one follows the data and join the crowd where my research begins with a suspect already in hand. I haven’t got one yet but wanted to kick the tires on a few profiles and possibly create an Uber-Cooper and trump all these other suspects once and for all. OK, so Cooper was either a working stiff who secretly had something stiff against society or a genius with a bulging grudge. Now I need something to reference (over and over and over) which will buttress my one true and accurate candidate. Wow, this will be hard. If only there was a way to show that Cooper was an airport bartender who was constantly making other people’s ‘good life’, better by constantly making them drinks and lighting their cigarettes with Sky Chefs matches. Where he was always showing up at work with a crisp, clean uniform (including tie) which was washed daily. That would explain why Cooper demanded a bourbon and water on the flight as a first step towards that ‘good life’ and took the used matchbook from Tina from force of habit. Or……. If only there was a source that showed Cooper was an unappreciated manager who worked in the aerospace industry in some dead end specialty, like… ummm… milling exotic metals. This Cooper would be tired of constantly wandering the factory floor which was humming with lathes all spinning and constantly producing a mist of lubricating oils which saturated his clothing. Although considered a manager he would wear a clip on tie as a sort of protest against the corporate bully boys who sentenced him to a life of scurrying around a machine shop. He would start smoking on Flight 305 as a disguise which explains the lack of tobacco artifacts in his tie. Of course this candidate will be selected by some available evidence because I’m pure and just looking for the truth. Just like everyone else who would never edit, omit or delete information in order to steer or manipulate and support a predestined theory.

The same way a skydiver can identify a chute by attachments or design, so can others in regard to their hobbies. Like suggested about the appraisers on Antiques Roadshow (no threat to my obvious Hunkyness that I watch it). So here’s as far as I could get and need help (code for smokin99 and her ilk) with this little crosscheck (gasp!). There is some ambiguity about the date Cooper’s tie was manufactured and or sold (as in a single interview from the 70’s). So I thought I would begin with a little corporate history on this piece of haberdashery. Prepare to be bored stiff. The ‘Pennys’ logo on Cooper’s tie was used from 1964 to 1971 and gives a rough first cut at the vintage of the tie. I know, big help that they quit using the logo in 1971. The logo previous was ‘Penny’s’ (with an apostrophe) and after was ‘JCPennys’ in the Helvetica font. Isn’t that fascinating? Next I blundered upon some other Towncraft items which were dated in the mid 60’s and had a different design than the Cooper tie Towncraft logo (see attach- Tie One On). Then I realized I may be too technical with this label. The website below has several examples of Towncraft garments and some associated dates (decades) which have the later design in the 70’s which could (just could) narrow the manufacture window to 1970 to 1971 if the appraisals of the clothing is accurate. One of the later Towncraft labels was identified with the 60’s so it may all be moot. http://www.vintagetrends.com/search/thumbnails.asp (search – Towncraft) to view 42 label examples and dates. Perhaps some experts can tell by color or pattern what year some of these things were produced (who knows).

RobertMBlevins astonishes with: “Kaye, but with chute experts along, might work.” Good choice sticking with Kaye (inventor of the RIPSTOCK-type chute) and some ‘experts’ (jumpers, instructors, riggers) might work (not sure yet); but aren’t really necessary, so I guess Kaye and it doesn’t really matter if he even sees the chute. Just like yesterday. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJpyG3PXoKw Semper Fanboi

RobertMBlevins continues to dig with: “I said clearly it should be done by outside experts on parachutes.” Like Tom Kaye? You jumped at the thought that TK (quoting georger, secret initials are so James Bond-y) said the Amboy artifact was nylon even though TK didn’t touch or see the thing. TK also didn’t mention what the reserve chute was made out of that he did touch (reference previous RIPSTOCK-Type chute). Is this the type of outside (something wrong with the skydiving crowd inside this forum?) expert you clearly sought? These are but a fraction of the angles that apparent incongruity could be viewed. Ever consider a mea culpa?

RobertMBlevins sez: “Neither Georger or I can 'analyze' the Amboy chute because the only thing to go on is the testimony of Cossey” (Cossey the jumper, instructor, rigger) versus Kaye (WHUFFO) Don’t forget to add that you and georger are eminently and totally unqualified to attempt such a task. Makes me wonder about just how you two select a proctologist. Has either one of you noticed that there are many skydivers and riggers on this forum who could honestly, quickly and accurately identify the fabric and weave? How is such a resource so consistently squandered if not for your desire to align with an answer you like as opposed to one which is true but does not support your pre-selected suspect? Recall the Dan Cooper comic in 1951? Didn’t YOU verify through grueling interview techniques, with a living witness, that this was a true and accurate statement? How’d that work out? What exactly is the ‘value adding component’ you or georger would bring to such an exercise? A couple more ‘empty vessel’ votes on a subject you two should have abstained from? Think there is some credibility gained through the addition of numerous people with an ‘opinion’ on a subject which they hold exactly zero knowledge? You know, like being a fanboi?

Whew, I can barely catch my breath or should it be breadth? This 40th anniversary just keeps giving and giving and giving. I’ve done more than my share of technical reports and analysis (all very small, much less than 4 years, actually less than 4 months each) and know the pain of answering questions from review teams and assorted technocrats in order to get the thing right or at least farther from wrong. Sure would have been nice to be my own review committee where I fielded a few softball or preferably pre rehearsed questions. But noooooooo, the boss had this ‘thing’ about being accurate, honest, reliable…. Blah, blah, blah. You know the type. Sure is nice to find an Oasis away from genuine discovery, independent thought, research and development. It was too hard and made me sad and a little bit cry. Could some skydivers spare a few words and explain the characteristics of a “Ripstock-type” parachute? I realize that georger and RobertMBlevins are both painfully aware of this type of system since they are part of the Amboy canopy, rapid analysis team. I would like an answer from a jumper this time, just for fun.

Smokin99 the solitary voice of reason again. Thanks for stopping this myth before the glimmer triplets opened the lab door and let it run amok in the village. Gee, I wish I could isolate the source of these latest missteps (who, oh who?) and try to find the reason for all this rapid, frenzied, mindless thrusting and pumping on the month of the 40th anniversary but I just can’t. I’m too stupid. While the universe shrinks with Larry, Moe and Curly (you know who they are) declaring the sky is falling and its Nylon, you (smokin99) dropped the hammer in a polite and classy way. Good for you. You’re a righteous chick. But…… I’m not nearly as classy and was utterly stunned at what I read. Where does one start with this garbage? A. What was Kaye’s opinion on the type of fabric the tie was made of? B. What type of fabric was the ‘pink’ reserve chute made of according to Kaye? C. Why would any weight be given to an opinion that agrees with others on a chute never observed? D. How desperate can one be to force a match to a pre-plotted curve? E. Are any of you people embarrass-able? F. Were these standard research techniques in college and where is this place? G. Is there an ‘I told you so’ for ridicule which was properly meted out? H. Did anyone read Bruce’s parachute articles? I. Is there a source? J. What point will ‘amateur’s’ bungling be on par with the FBI? K. Are there any lessons learned from this episode? L. Still want to claim that you verify your data? M. What will you do if the chute is silk? N. You realize what the manufacture date on the Amboy chute was right? O. Five thousand jumpers and riggers on this forum and you used how many as a secondary source? P. Think using a few of the Five Thousand jumpers and riggers on this forum would be wise? Q. Have you considered using Ronnie Milsap or Jose Feliciano? R. At what point should people be on the lookout for signs of you having a closed mind? S. Tom Kaye (WHUFFO) is more qualified than Earl Cossey (jumper, instructor and rigger)? T. Did the previous question make any part of your body tighten involuntarily? U. Getting a clue yet? V. Is it a raging clue? W. Going to look past an ocean of experience in order to land on a desert island with an answer you already have? X. Why not just go there now? Y. You think you are fooling anyone; anymore (any of you)? Z. Ever considered fiction as a much easier route? *Question everything* (way to set an example, but thanks for all the grist you guys!).

That’s right I’ve watched it and I’m not afraid to admit it. Who doesn’t enjoy seeing the expression on a woman’s face after she has been informed that her cherished, heirloom, centuries old antique vase her grandmother left her is a low value reproduction? It’s good that this is on TV because I can laugh at home which is something I would never do in public. OK, that was a lie. None the less, I am astonished at how so few people, can know so much, about such narrow subject matter (like tie clasps). These appraisers are specialists in whatever (left handed couch buns) and can arrive at some amazingly rapid and accurate conclusions because they know where to look and what to look for. The same way I blush when a suburbanite misidentifies another ‘cow’. It truly isn’t that hard guys. Anyway, since it is hard for most people to know everything about everything; it is a good idea to call in some experts on what it is you thirst for. Everything doesn’t have to be treated like some James Bond-y, National Secret, geesh. After reading about the tie clasp (bar, tack, whatever) which has been examined closer than a centerfold picture at a Boy Scout jamboree, there remains no mention of any stamp or hallmark. To include a statement like…. ummm….. there is no apparent manufacturers stamp or hallmark. Even though all my crummy tie tacks, cuff links and cock rings have some sort of identifying mark. What exactly is the ‘gem’ in the middle of the clasp? Pearl (a la FBI), abalone, stone, polymer, Bakelite, resin, glass, Ethiopian lap lap or doesn’t matter? What’s the composition of the clasp? Gold filled, plate, dipped, electroplated, neutral gold cyanide or Roswellian chamber dusted? Too banal, I know, I know. What if (if here, relax again) there was only one company known to manufacture half inch, Bakelite decorations in gold electroplated bezels named the ‘Shitty Thai Klasp Company’? Again, too banal. There is a problem when anything becomes too incestuous (oxymoron?) and nature has certainly mapped out a dead end road for these overspecialized species. Too bad we can’t learn from our mistakes even by accident. Hey, let’s have an open discussion about various analytical techniques which will raise the tide of all knowledge where the best of a profession or vocation is selected for their unique skills and abilities in order to arrive at a rational and superior result. But first, we need to ‘elect’ a King. Oh well.

There are some piles of something associated with that comment but I don’t think it came out of a dredge. Why did the previous mention of this subject spark another curt, charmless and worthless response georger? What was your point then (13 June)? Why was MY posting of the alluvial fans on Tena Bar ‘old news’ and your posting yesterday fresh as a daisy? The smell is oddly familiar too but not like it came out of a dredge. I mean the fact that ‘old news’ can be found in…. wait for it…. little longer….. this is another intellectual gem….. PRIOR posts! Really georger! Old news can be found in things published prior, as in before the present time, thus making the search in future posts futile? Thanks for the tip ‘Captain Timetravel’. Fact is, I did search the forum for ‘Alluvial Fan’ and found nothing about the dredge formations at Tena Bar. But I’m just a monkey and not as capable as you, so I just let it be.