Zoltan

You are right but still forget that Wind Tunel is _NOT_ a skydiving tool but an ousider stuff which makes huge difference between teams after all The only comparable other development in the 4way history is the creeper. WindTunel is a simulator a very good simulator which can replace 50 seconds from the skydive's 65 seconds. As I said it is not unfair, of course it is not. But we should not be blind and we should recognise that 4 hour tunel training you can do technicaly during a week, but if you want to do the same skydivine training it takes more or less a season. It is not bad.. it just redraws the map of the world's 4way competitions and we should admit this change. z

Sure it is not unfair :) I just sai that i understand if somebody feels it unfair. Yes, there is windtunel in Orlando and i was thinking about to go there (as few of us used the opportunity) but I was concentrating on the big ways and I was a bit worried if I get addicted with one session :) and then I come back to home where the nearest windtunel is still like 1000 miles away... :) (my home DZ is 12 minutes by bicycle from home and work) and anyway our team has plan.. a plan which fits to the reallity and makes happy everyone of us.. and this plan does not contain windtunel trainings :) instead we do some creeper trainings at winter and drinking beer and having sauna together :) z

mega-booties are the things you use during the skydive and available for everybody... WindTunel is a tool which has a great effect on your bodyflying skills and not available for everybody. And WindTunel is _not_ a skydiving tool... it is a room with artificial strong vertical airflow :) you use it before, after or instead of skydiving... like creepers, but a bit more expensive and more effective. Imagine the 4way world without creepers and dirtdiving....and then imagine that only few teams has the opportunity to use creepers... Of course they have huge advantage :) Is it clear?

ok, but consider that all the 'unfair' factors are skydive related... windtunel is the only thing which is not parachuting related at all and gives incredible huge advantage for some competitor skydivers....so I understand that there are guys out there training hard and has bad feeling when they are beaten up by another team jsut beacause the other team has easier acces to a wind tunel. It is normal... the geography of 4way world is a bit different after wind tunel came in regular use :) z

I did not say 'unfair'. I said it makes difference.. and yes it does. I have no problem with it. z

"There should be one on every DZ" yep.. but there is no WT on everu DZ and it makes different between teams on competition... z

jep :) It is all about risk management... on an important -what a stupid term- jump you better take less risk and be a bit slower and more relaxd but on a boogie fun jump you migh push a bit your limits and practice a bit faster approache and smile longer in the video.... and if you screw up :) then it is allways good motivation for the begginers that even you the hero makes mistakes :) z

Well :) Iknow i have an unpopular opinion about this issue :) First of all I beleive that slower suit might help and Tshirt type of trick can solve some problem. But still it is about skydiving and not about cloth-freaking :) 99% of the situation when somebody goes low is not about fall rate or jump suit problem. It is about how and when you 'pull your handbrake' in a dive. If you are not in the base then you are diver or floater. The problem comes when people dive... The formation is under you let's say about 200 feet... so you dive, so you are faster then the formation. If you start to brake 2-3 feet above the formation you will end up 10-20 feet lower then the formation.. you look up and you go even lower... So you need to react earlier and start to brake your dive already 20-30 feet above the formation. If you brake too early... no probem you will stage the approach 5 feet by 5 feet. At maximum you will be later in your slot, but you wil never go low. You do not need to fall 'slower' but you need to fall the same speed as the formation. If the formation is really slow and you dress up according to this low speed then the formation is just gets even slower... so it does not solve the problem. But first check a ProTrack or stuff like it for the speed of the formation. 110--115-120 mph should not be a problem... If the team is slower then this, then you mention it to the organizer.... They should no that 105 mph is slow and in this case it is not you who should put extra clothes but guys in the base shuld put more weights on :) or fly better. z

Do not need to worry :) Our beloved sport is like a family. In the beginning there were only couple of children in the family so no surprise that children had got bigger attention then nowadays when year by year our family is richer and richer with new kids. RW is one of the oldest brother... it does not need any more any extra care. RW lives and will live. Personally I'm happy for the new kids... swooping, birdmand, freefly... they look good and even outsiders can understand them easily... and it is hard to say the same about 4 way formation skydive :) RW competitions are just fine... the avg. points of the top 3 teams are rising not only in the US but everywhere around the world. French guys were turning 45 point in 35 secs. Training techniques and equipment are getting better and better and even a few hundred jumped novice team can do with a good coaching the same points as 20 years ago the world class heroes :) Big ways age getting bigger and bigger... 300 way for 7 secs, 120 way sequential are keeping the world records and 60-100 way camps are regular events. So it is all improving and getting better and better :) and I love it :) z

honestly :) i have no idea what is the object... i just speculate :) z

It was the block nr 1. snowflake-snowflake http://www.wcfauna.ee/~peedu/fs4/1/dp1.jpg The block started as snowflake-offset would start, but after the center grip is released and there are two 2way cats relatively shifted a bit and the tails of these cats are releasing their cat grip and turning on a way that they offer their legs for a cat grip to the head of the other cat pair... so there is a new cat-cat form which can be closed to a new snowflake. By cheating with the grips this block was really fast and very sensitive for staging. I liked it z

that is true and i fuly agree that it is good idea to slow down the 4way jumps.... but the snow-snow block had a very unique transition what i miss from the pool and with the not so hot teams it was a good training block. z

Everything is possible... the only problem is that every point (as avarage) has its price and as you get closer to 25 the points get more and more expensive even if we assume that the 4way team members are all young (

yeah... i'm still upset about the snow-snow... it was one of my favourite, the Black Hole-Bipole was also an interesting block... :) z

Hi folk, since this morning (2003.05.20 8:00 GMT+2) i could not use the forum with Opera browser. I see the forum main page (http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi) but not any sub forums or topics are coming up. I would suggest you to download the Opera7.0 version and check this problem out. Thanx and regards, Zoltan

"Let's not be to critical of someone who did the right thing." You wrote this. I understood it so that by your opinion the instructor made the right thing. Maybe my english is not good enough. And once again, I'm not flaming.. neither you nor the instructor. I just pointed out few things and by my opinion he was not a hero... "was the student AAD the issue or was it the decision of the instructor?" The judgement of the instructor's decision depends on the fact if the Student had or di dnot have AAD. She had and that made the decision very bad. I hope you understand that I'm not thowing flames at all... z

> Why do people run into burning buildings to save a stranger? Because that is their job, because they do it according to their treinings and because the strangers in the house do not have ASD (Automatic Smother Device) I think this fireman analog is not correct. > How would you feel if doctors gave up on their patients too easily? Again incorrect analog... The student in this issue had a properly functioning AAD!!! >Let's not be to critical of someone who did the right thing You mean that in your opinion it is right to go under 2000 feet without AAD and chasing a student who actually has an AAD and pulling her main at about 800 feet? z

Yes, now I am totaly convinced that the whole argument is started because of different interpretation of concepts like heroism and suicide and I am really sorry for it. I just wanted to point on few technical points and i dod not want to hurt anyone. That is all. The problem is that I beleive that Robert was not saving the student, but puting her in even bigger danger. Yes from the whuffo point it was a heroic act, from the point of skydiving disciplines it was not a heroic act and in my opinion it is not enough to describe it as a mistake, it was a bit more then mistake. Sad, we lost one sport fellow and there was a student in danger and luck that the student is alive. Would you call the instructor still a hero if the student's reserve entangels with her main and impacts? Because i would not, and it was God (you can call it Destiny's order if yoy want so) who saved her not the instructor. You ar right, heroism is when you put other's life in front of yours. Heroism is when you are unselfish. Yes that is true. And my opinion is that in skydiving we do not need heroes but cool minded well traind people with great respect towards to the disciplines and safety. z

You are perfectly right! Understanding and accepting are not the same things. I also understand why Robert made what he made, but i just can not accept it as a heroism. > I do not rely on AAD's to save my life or the lives of my students. According to my trainings and the experiences I do rely on AAD. And what is more important... it does not metret if you rely on it or not.. you still can not switch it off during the freefall. So when teh JM is just beinga hero pulling the students's main, the same time he puts the student's life in a real danger. >There's a difference between understanding something intellectually and understanding it in your gut. Yes there is... and I beleive that the secret of the long life is somwhere weher the disciplines and understunding things with brain overwhelms the heroism. I know there are difficult decisions up there... to make a decision like following a student under 2000 feet should not be one of the difficult ones. It is a simple question.. and the answer is NO. Noone should chase anyone who has an installed Cypress on back under 2000 feet, not in any circumstances, never. If anyone still does so... he/she should accept the consequences. That is my opinion which might differs form someone else's opinion. z

It seems that many of us forget that in this tragedy there was no life to save. the student had a properly functioning well maintained, tested Automatic Activation device. The kid you would save by crashing your car has no equipment to save him, the children the firemen are saving from burning houses has no equipment to save them. The student in this situation had an AAD. That makes the difference... and that should be understood. It is not about who has AFF-JM licence and it is not about how Troll I am.. It is about disciplines. And once again... all my sympathy goes to the family of Robert and all my respect to him. He surely was a great person and a great skydiver and no question that it is always a sorrow to lose anyone from our community And one more, i never called anyone idiot. I would be one if i were call anyone idiot.

It was short Bob...may I ask you, what do you say to a student who asks you about this tragedy? z

"Suicide is intentionally taking your own life." yes.. and that is what he did... Sometimes not acting is acting. Not pulling on the altitude where you must pull in order to land safe is called suicide. It is OK to walk on the rail-road but if you see the train coming and you do not act (leave that bloody railroad) then you are just comitting suicide by not acting. The instructor was an experienced skydiver... he knew very well that on 1800 feet altitude he must be under a fully opened canopy in order to land safe. When he fall thru this altitude he accepted the fact that he is just breaking the first rule of freefall: Pull on proper altitude! "circumstances pushed them to make a difficult decisio in a split second" Yes and he made the worst decision putting not only himself to danger but his student as well...On 800 feet you do not try to open main chute. That is rule #2. On that altitude you open reserve... or if you have AAD than it will open your reserve. Pulling pilot chute on 800 feet when the student has Cypress for example can very easily since Cypress fires at 750 feet and a half opened main and a just opening reserve can entangle resulting serious injuries or death. It is not a joke, it is fact. I also have great respect for anyone who makes an effort to save someone else's life, but in this situation there was no need for heroism. There was no life in danger except the instructor's life. Heroism sucks when the student has AAD. Unnecessary! The student's life was not in, she had AAD and that is what many people very easily forget about.

I say, bullshit, major bullshit. What this particular instructor made was a suicide. Clean, 100% sure, suicide. What he made was against many regulations and what is the worst... what he made was ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY. He did not save the life of the student but put her life in a bigger danger and killing himself the same time. If anyone happens to be on the side of a student on two grands, he just does not mess with the MAIN chute because he risks the double_canopy_out problem what can kill the student and in general nobody messes with students when she has a great AAD on her back and at the same time you do not have one. I am very sorry for the instructor and specially all my sympathy with his family... but just because I'm sorry i can not call him a hero. He made mistake, big mistake and for big mistakes in this sport you pay the highest price. z

"Ramdom "I" is the starflake" Now i got it :) so it is the Proton.. introduced by our 4way team last year... like the Yuan, but the compr.acc pair's guy instead of facing off the formation he took a sidebody grip... :) z

"Made you look" :) i did not look, unfortunetly i know the pool by heart...but i was just thinking about the logic. z