skymama1

Ohh man, what a f'ing Friday- not even going there.. but screwy political b/s and people f'ing around with other people's families and livelihoods out of sheer retaliatory (illegal) action and vengefulness.. ohh I could kill today (and no it is no drama related to skydiving or to this forum so no worries here, just royally pissed and ready to stir some sh!t IRL).. (oh and I'm really a hippie vegan, so don't take it literally, I promise I won't go on a crazy rampage, just venting, it's all about the peace and love shit, lol..) Other than that, awesome but very brain/thinking intensive two day/all-day bioethics conference and some post-conference socializing so... too tired to do much 'round here now but thought this would be the place to say hey... so, hey there bry and all! :) But, yes, soooo glad that it is Friday, after last weekend was a bust I definitely need some sky time.. sounds like some others are missing out on jumps too- sorry to hear about the airspace being closed but hope it clears up for ya'll!! I see what you mean now, about the ash.. thx.. Unfortunately I was told it is to be rainy all weekend here.. but I never actually check on the weather forecast myself, only occasionally allow others to forecast their doom within earshot and then yell at them for bursting my bubble For now, fingers crossed for 2 AFF jumps on Sunday, and possibly a half-day at the DZ tomorrow depending on what transpires (But, I may be truly and well pissed at myself if I wind up not going tomorrow in favor of my all-day Sunday, and then Sunday gets winded/rained out.. so, wish me luck, and blue skies to all for this weekend (and beyond)!!

Thanks! And congrats on the upcoming nuptials bry!! I haven't followed the saga lol but getting married is generally a good thing ;) Anything on the agenda for the day? My grand plan o' the day is to sleep, in theory, except I have a meeting in four hours' time, so that sleep thing might not be occurring for long, and another doula client mtg at noon, then a lunch/dinner playdate with an old friend about a half hour drive out.. So, I may well be up for 48 hours.. this won't be pretty. I'll try not to post anything too ridiculous on here in my sleep-deprived haze Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

Hey Bry, thanks for that coffee ;) Mornin' all.. I'll take decaf since it's nearing 5 am here in the midwest and I am preparing for bedtime lol.. no goddamn morning for me Was attending a childbirth, healthy li'l girl born at 1am (the parents decided they were ok having her any time after midnight so we had to hold off a bit haha; they didn't want a 4/20 baby. The nurse said that one of her patients that prior morning had their baby born at 4:20 am on the dot on 4/20 Ok- Potentially silly question, but what is ash in the sky? Is this an obvious answer that I'm missing, or is this not something I would be aware of at this stage, having never flown an airplane? Sorry to hear about that accident, I like the quote bry, so true... Hope everyone has a good one and gets through a few more days till the weekend.. off to crash now! Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

I too would be interested in this. As with any new development, it may or may not be more trouble than its worth, or cause new issues, I guess we don't know but history is always a good indicator for some background. My line of thinking just goes something along the lines of the fact that if all students are required to wear helmets, why wouldn't a student doing a tandem progression be required to wear one, just AFF? But I do also understand that landing one's own parachute is a much different situation that being landed by/with a TM/I.. And I would think at very least for people with three feet of hair like me (yes, located on my head, and no, no lice, to clear all that up ) it would be safe/smart for the comfort of the TM/I to give a frap hat or something at least- but since I am not familiar with the technicalities of that I am simply going off what I saw and experienced on my tandem and such, and will surely leave it to experienced TM/Is and the USPA to make these decisions as to what is required, recommended, or done by individuals for their ideal situation. Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

Agreed.. I was pretty surprised when I went for my 1st tandem (required prior to the AFF) earlier this month and was afforded no head protection at all.. (TM/I wore a frap hat only) I have very long hair too which I french braided and the vid shows it flapping- I worry in retrospect this could have snagged on something, it was literally trailing say a foot and a half or so behind me and at one point hit the TM in the face- not very comfy at that speed I imagine lol! I can see both sides of this- TM/I needs protection from injury to his or her head/face by the student since they are responsible for the safe pull and land- but student also needs protection in case of a hard landing or mal or other unforeseen circumstance (does anyone know of any past situations where this has been an issue one way or the other?? I suppose I could check incidents..) But I also agree that a head itself is hard too- that said, a helmet extends the 'hard part' outwards an inch or so, bringing it closer to the TM/I's face. It seems to me that it does make a lot of sense to either make a hybrid type helmet that both affords protection to the tandem student/passenger, and protects the TM/I's safety, or for BOTH TM/I and tandem student to be wearing helmets of some sort- is there a reason this would be less safe somehow (I don't know the technicalities here)? I do think that if AFF students are required to wear head protection, tandem students should also have such, or at least the option of such, but of course the TM/I's safety and needs also must be considered.. this hybrid idea sounds like a good one, although having BOTH wear helmets seems it could just as easily solve the issue unless I am overlooking some technicality.. Interested to hear others' experiences and thoughts.. Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

In that case you probably find Stanford prison experiment interesting as well. Yes this is fascinating stuff. Philip Zimbardo (Stanford Prison Experiment) wrote an excellent book called the Lucifer Effect that goes into more detail on that and the psychology behind it- highly recommend to the readers amongst us. People and our brains are some crazy stuff.. Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

Yes, I think making sure ANY newer skydiver gets facts straight is helpful to that person and the sport as a whole. Several people have pointed that out, and I have thanked them graciously and made sure, since I cannot edit the former post, to clarify exactly what was correct (FAA vs. USPA) in another post later on. I completely appreciate anyone correcting any typos, mistakes, or misconceptions (respectfully) that I (or others) have made or believe to be true, and believe I have accepted such correction with appreciation and not rudeness or defensive demeanor. We're all adults here, right? I am still learning as are we all right? I think we all have things to teach one another- in skydiving, but moreso in LIFE- bigger picture? Nothing like a fatality to put that in perspective either. So once again, thank you for your willingness to mentor newer skydivers, and to set things straight when something incorrect is posted for whatever reason. I don't need to grovel and I am not going to say it again. But I do have genuine gratitude for those who are willing to share their knowledge and help others accumulate it so that accurate info gets spread and skydiving is made safer and better understood by all. Dramazone- JOKE! The only people I have heard refer to it that way have been long-time DZ.com members and experienced skydivers, and multiple times- I in no way meant it as an insult and I think that would have been clear. If I felt this was not a helpful place I would not spend the time to post or read here-- BUT I also think people who don't know me don't understand that I think and thus type at a ridiculously fast speed, and a post that seems like it would take an average someone hours to write is often written very quickly for me, and sometimes while multi-tasking (I'm a mom- trust me I know multitasking.. ;) Beyond that I see no need to respond further to any of the above posts or comments thrown my way or get defensive. I have no hard feelings towards anyone here but clearly do not appreciate people being rude for no reason. And I am slightly regretful now that this whole thing has taken over a thread that could have better addressed several important subjects, namely a parent's loss of a child to skydiving, safety in the sport in general, and/or legal ramifications of certain actions or discussions. My respects to Sierra's family and I apologize if I have contributed to taking this thread off of the more important topics relating to her accident and to the skydiving community. So, again--- time for thread to die? Or back to our regularly scheduled programming?? I am done here- off to class, then helping with flyering for a community group meeting I am volunteering with, then a dinner get-together with an old friend, and a review session for an upcoming exam. peace, robyn Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

I was wondering that too.. I'm guessing either it's made up or he cheated (Word's word counter feature?) -- but of course I don't mean to question your integrity in the word-counting department. Skin's just fine as is for now, methinks, but thanks for the advice.. still don't think people need to fling shit (and still don't mind flinging a bit back on occasion, though hopefully with a little more tact and respect.. so maybe I am a hypocrite too but I'm not too worried at this juncture) but I'm really not too worried this particular forum/thread affecting the scheme of my life and my time in the sport.. I see why they call it dramazone dot come. Again, I appreciate that someone called out my typo/mix-up between USPA and FAA and clarified such to ensure that only factual information is posted here. So thank you. Back to our regularly scheduled programming? Or is it time to die thread die? I would advise Sierra's mom to contact the people who worked with her daughter's death investigation if she still needs facts she lacks, since it seems she won't find here anything she does not know, if you have more questions. Again, this forum doesn't seem like a place that a parent will get what you need/want in any circumstance even though the death happened skydiving, though there are certainly grief and loss forums online that can probably help sort out some of the deeper issues and questions with losing a child to such an accident (mothering.com has a discussion section with great forums including such- maybe support is better found there for these issues like loss of a child). It seems there is nowhere to go with further technical questions at this point, or questions of the sport, which has its known risks and adults their own choices- only spiritual and personal questions probably remain to be really delved into. Best of luck on your journey, to Sierra's mom and family, wherever you are. Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

I love to write and I write a lot and quickly. I am not ashamed of it and no one has to read any or all of it. In fact, given your rude comment, if I've prevented you from reading and responding to me, *thumbs way UP* Yes I talk a lot (verbally) when I am nervous/anxious (as I likely would be in a life raft lol). I listen a lot when I am with someone I care about or someone else who is sharing something. I ask questions when I feel I need clarification. We are all different, can we accept that and move on? No one is compelling you to read my post. But I don't appreciate unnecessary offensive one liners in unrelated threads. peace, i'm out for now. robyn Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

...and yet you say so much. Off topic much?? I have a right to share my thoughts (free speech anyone?) and I am not sorry if you don't like it, it's a free country. Just because I am new to the sport does not mean that as a mother and human I cannot try to give some basic info to a mother who is grieving, or share info from what I have read and learned on these forums and from my instructors to spare her having to spend hours searching that info out. This is the only forum I have ever been on where people flame away so openly and hatefully at times, but thank goddess for the kind, civil ones who more than balance it out. More importantly, thank goodness for the kind, civil people at the DZ I have been training at and in my life and on other forums, who are willing to engage in discussions and not make smarmy digs at a poster for no reason and which are completely off topic. Crazy indeed. ----------------------------------------- ON TOPIC: If Sierra's mother is posting here, again, my heartfelt condolences to you. I cannot begin to imagine your pain and can understand your need to search for answers and closure. My heart is with you. -------------------------------- Maybe I am naive, maybe not. But it does more harm to hurt someone posting honestly than to assume the best and console someone even if they are not.. what is wrong with this picture when we reverse it? And JohnDeere, I think your post was clear in pointing out that you acknowledged that it may or may not be legit and apologized for questioning her if she is who she says she is, I am not accusing you of being disrespectful. it just seems some posts on this thread and moreso on some others I have read lately jump to attack people or question motives without any level of restraint or kindness (which you did seem to display so again not blasting you! just makes me sad to see these threads especially since I have gotten similar PMs and replies when I first joined due to username issues- see below) But yeah, in general-- Empathy? Compassion? (And again no digs intended at the skeptics in this post, or those who have posted similarly kind or neutral replies to OP, or not responded at all (always an option right!?) or at anyone really, but seriously, I am not the kind of person to tolerate smarmy ridiculous sh!t spewing at me which is completely off topic and offensive in a thread of this nature which is sensitive as is for all involved. I felt that the questioning of her motives had been covered and wanted to make a post simply presuming she is who she claims to be and speaking from that perspective. Your comment NovaTTT was totally NOT necessary and is offensive. The reason I clarify my own limits of experience and knowledge in such a post is so that OP/others reading are aware of where I am coming from (CONTEXT is essential) and can read the post as such. And speaking to a non-skydiver or someone new to these forums I do often know more or have more info about the related issues than they would and there is nothing wrong with trying to share it or offer support to someone, even though of course I acknowledge many posters here have vastly greater knowledge and experience. It takes time to learn anything in life, sometimes people act as though it is not okay to be part of this online community unless you are a skygod with thousands of posts- well every one with a D license, thousands of posts, etc. at one point started with AFF, IAD, or static line, or tandem progression, and everyone started with 0 posts. There is, and should be, a mix. I don't take well to such comments as the one above. I imagine a mother coming here to ask questions about her child's death wouldn't either, since it is totally irrelevant to her post and my reply. Even if this thread is not what it seems to be, your comment seems highly provocative, unnecessary, and downright rude. ---------------------- @likestojump-- If indeed OP is a lawyer, you are right that it would not have been my first assumption, but online, YOU NEVER KNOW and you accept that, right? That said, I really do not see how anything legal could come of this, there are far more details in the incident thread anyways and there was a thorough investigation and report given. OP's main question as I read it was how someone could allow someone to pack a parachute, since she obviously believed (correctly it seems) it was mis-packed (is that a word? ) (and, the underlying question- why and how could my daughter have died like this!?) I told the OP in my post, which I understand is accurate, that it is likely safer to have trained riggers do the reserve packing than those with less experience (and sometimes people can choose to observe a reserve re-pack, I would think for myself at least I will be learning about my gear and observing, doing checks on my own to the extent I am able, etc. as this makes sense to me) but *nothing* is going to be 100% safe/error-proof as we are human. Thanks for pointing out the AFF/USPA switch. USPA certifies tandem instructor ratings etc. and licenses and such/sets standards in the US. But FAA (federal government organization, Fed Aviation Administration I believe) certifies riggers who pack the reserves every 180 days. I believe that is how I should have explained it. Sorry for any confusion and thanks for clarifying that for me/OP/others!! Quite possibly so, in that as you state, the reason I differ from some posters who think this post is fake is indeed that I have not had the time/experience on this board to see similar threads and outcomes. I am sure I could become more cynical with time if this really does happen often.. but I also think there are some cases where people need to put away the tin foil hats ;) That said, I don't claim to understand the politics of this board or the sport in full or anywhere close to it, but I feel I can chime in to offer comfort- at the worst, I have done nothing harmful, at best maybe I have helped console a grieving parent. I suppose if anything if they identify the rigger who mispacked the rig and conclude this was true beyond reasonable doubt that it was incorrectly packed, they could go after him or her (??) I don't know. BUT, I personally don't think so (in my limited knowledge- I just know from reading and discussing so far that it seems in this sport, the waivers signed legitimately are generally upheld in court, in my understanding), and yes we have to acknowledge the inherent risks of all aspects before making the choices we make, all of us. I appreciate the reasonable/respectful tone of your post and information given, and again I am sure that I may become more jaded if this truly is a common and legit phenomenon. But I think a lawyer would also be smart enough to post using proper grammar/punctuation/date of death, etc. and ask more specific questions? They are paid BIG bucks for that kind of thing The post, to me, had the tone of a grieving mother- but again, we all look through different lenses as we learn and grow in the present and based on our past experiences, genes, personalities. I guess I just don't understand how any lawyer could get anything incriminating by posting here, or why they'd try, knowing that she signed a waiver, and that the TI did try EPs and died WITH her, another loss for another family sadly and the whole community-- but again, as you say, I may change that perspective and am happy to learn from those more experienced (when they are genuinely trying to help and/or educate) Thank you again, and I do sincerely apologize if my comment of being "unlike some others" implied that I was superior to those who questioned the authenticity or have more experience on this forum and its uses/abuses- I just think that in general and online counts too, it is best to be wary of potential harm/offense when it is not needed, and that some posts could do more harm than good as stated.. even if there is only a one in a hundred chance this is legitimate (I have no clue)- if it is even remotely possible that it is, wouldn't one rather say nothing at all, respectfully ask a question to clarify motives, etc.? I just wanted to put a post out there taking it at face value and addressing the questions and emotions, since it seems that had not been done very much at the point I saw this thread. I guess I just realize it is easy for people to make mistakes (riggers making a mistake packing, a grieving parent mistyping 22 instead of 19 after she just got done typing 22 a bunch of times in creating the account and the first sentence of her post, etc.) I know myself, making the mistake of having read here a few months without posting or registering, I read posts but didn't really look at profiles or usernames, and registering found that my name was very similar to the moderators (skymama). My intro post explains this mistake when realized, but there were people who jumped on me, scolded me, assumed I was a troll via PM or the thread (I think one or two may have been deleted)- point is, I know how it feels to be attacked for a simple mistake, it's rather silly in my case and I am over that (I did contact sangiro about changing or deleting per suggestion/request but it has not been addressed or responded to so I assume the staff here has decided that it should stay, I could care less one way or the other what my username is here), but the point being, as a grieving parent, it could cut very deeply to be attacked or questioned harshly or judged to have bad motives without a chance to discuss it rationally within the community that surrounded your child at the time of her death and who you perceive may have answers or insight for you. I guess I just try to err on the side of kindness and benefit of the doubt. But I can also see that if this kind of thing happens often and is truly a nuisance at best and a threat at worst, jumpers would be upset by it and want to reply in kind- it's just important to me not to make assumptions, but again maybe I am naive on this one, and I apologize if there was any sort of perceived or implied superiority in the tone of my post, I really just wanted to have some balance and some words of basic information and support to answer the OP's question, provide links to info, and most importantly, offer support to someone who may be grieving deeply. -------------------------------- Finally, yes I am new to skydiving but feel I have already gleaned much wisdom from these boards and my wonderful instructors, but obviously have much much more to learn. However, most of my posts or opinions come from my LIFE experience alongside my limited skydiving experience, nothing exists in a vacuum- I have lost loved ones to death, and have been in the case of wondering if my best friend (and my son's aunt) was going to survive a coma and brain injury after a horrible car accident, sitting by the hospital bedside day after day until she finally woke, relearned to walk and talk and eat and drink, etc. I have given birth naturally and parented a child as a single mother. I have overcome severe addiction/dependency issues in my past as well as several medical problems. I have had a lot of learning and growing in my near 23 years, and that is a lifelong process, but I simply don't appreciate being discounted simply because of jump numbers or post numbers or age or stage of skydiving training or whatever else. I am a parent and know what it is like to love a child as a mother, and this post was relevant to me. I have had the experience of skydiving, though obviously much less than many here- you have to start somewhere right? Sometimes it seems that newer posters are not welcomed here by some (a small but often vocal and crude minority?), though I do feel the majority are kind and helpful and I am forever grateful for those who have helped me online and IRL to get off the ground so to speak in my goal of attaining my AFP and A license thus far, and look forward to talking and learning and meeting more friends and mentors. People can read my posts, ignore my posts, evaluate them based on my profile, history, jump numbers, post numbers, *content* (preferably take this into account, obviously?) whatever they like- but I am in AFF and am pursuing very seriously the goal of achieving my licensing this season, so I guess I don't understand why, speaking (theoretically I guess) to a parent who has never skydived but lost someone in the sport, as someone who clearly has more info on certain aspects of the sport than she does and spent time reading all the available info on the incident, cannot share the basic info that I know or offer words of comfort- and by all means, if I say something inaccurate correct me- I want to learn or I wouldn't be here. I read far more than I post, so yes my post numbers may not be huge, but I also just joined recently after reading/not registering for a few months. A potential grieving mother and a tandem fatality are issues that I wanted to comment on, and provide some balance to the thread as well- the great thing about online forums is that you have people all across the spectrum in abilities, ages, locations, knowledge, perspectives, and experiences. There is nothing wrong with multiple perspectives or types of replies; that is the POINT :) I also think there is nothing wrong with questioning things and not always taking everything online at face value, but if you are not sure (and online, you are not often certain beyond reasonable doubt in most cases) it's best IMHO to be tactful when possible to avoid harm (not directed at you, but I have seen some posts here/elsewhere that have a very rude tone when it seems unnecessary and it does bother me- why be rude or condescending when you can be neutral or kind?) So, take it or leave it guys, but I've a right to post it, and I do appreciate feedback that is reasonable and civil. And really, you won't see me giving advice or feedback to experienced licensed skydivers on things beyond my knowledge or scope of experience, but I feel I have a right to weigh in when I choose to do so, while clearly letting people know where I am coming from so they can weigh what I have to say and where I am coming from if relevant.. Especially when talking to others who are around my level (AFF students, first time jumpers/tandems, non-skydivers or family members of a skydiver) then yes, I do probably have a bit more info and experience and don't see why I should not share that when I feel appropriate. This is an odd place indeed.. guess I just need to let people sort their own ridiculousness and engage with those who actually want to discuss things like civil human beings. I'm over it. Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

Hello, Unlike some, I will give you the benefit of the doubt in your identity and intent. in grief and in typing quickly, I can see how it would be easy for anyone, if she was 22 years old and you had just created the screen name "sierrasmom22" to type "22" instead of "19" as the date. It seems that there was a thorough inspection of the gear and the situation by qualified professionals- if you have not already read the details in this post: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3678886 It may help you to understand- though some of the terms may be over your head (glossary may help too: http://www.dropzone.com/safety/resources/handbook/gloss2.shtml) It seems clear that the instructor *did* pack his own parachute and did it right as far as we know- sometimes accidents happen. The reserve, or back-up parachute, is packed by someone with specialized training (a "rigger"), thus it would generally be less safe for someone without this training to pack a reserve him/herelf, and against regulations at that. Now in this case it appears that the reserve WAS packed incorrectly, and the report states that the tandem instructor/TI, or aka Tandem Master/TM, DID cut-away the malfunctioned/spinning main parachute in a timely manner and instructed Sierra to arch while he performed EPs, but due to an error in the packing of the back-up aka reserve parachute system, was unable to adequately get the reserve open. This is very rare but it does happen- I am so sorry for your loss, and I know that non-skydivers may have difficulty understanding some aspects of the sport- I just recently started my training and in choosing to skydive, one has to accept the inherent risks- but it is always hard for many of us to accept the death of a tandem student on their very first skydive- rare, and hard to accept, because at that point they are putting their faith in the safety record and competence of the instructor, and tandems are advertised as a safer way to go about a skydiving experience. That said, any and all participants, as legal adults, sign a waiver and consent to risks, and in this case, the TI, while it does not sound like he made any errors, lost his life also. I am 22 almost 23, so I am around your daughter's age- it is far too young to lost your life, and no parent should have to bury their child :( I am also so sorry to hear that the owner of the drop zone was not understanding or supportive of you in such a time of grief. That should really have been handled better though of course he was under stress.pressure, I do feel it was inconsiderate, though I do not know the person or the circumstances. I wish you peace and healing- maybe reading up on these forums will help you gain a better understanding of some of these things, but really other than the details posted towards the end of the incident report linked, it sounds like you may already have this info on the accident itself, or more- I understand you want closure, and may just be seeking whys that may never fully be understood, as are so many things in life. I am so sorry, I cannot imagine the pain of losing a child (and as a mother myself, it goes both ways- the pain of losing my child, and the pain of a child losing his or her mother- it sounds like Sierra had a young child as well at the time of the accident. Are you raising her child/your grandchild? Or is his or her father? I hope you are able to spend time with your grandchild..) Again, taking your post at face value, I am so sorry for your loss. Reading around these forums may give you some insight, but it sounds like seeing the video (and yes, this could be an instructional tool and helpful for riggers packing reserves and TI/TMs in terms of thinking through how to handle such a situation (as you will see some of this discussion on the incident report thread linked)- if it is too painful I also understand, but yes, I agree it could be helpful. I believe that the TI/TMs I have met have all gone through vigorous training and while sometimes mistakes are made, skydiving has become remarkably safe compared to what it could be, and my experience has been that they take their responsibility for safety and the lives of their passengers/students very seriously. I know it is no condolence, but sometimes people take risks that another person might not deem acceptable; sometimes the odds, while statistically showing a tandem to be very safe intro to the sport, can still go wrong, and some people do have the midset of, it can't happen to me. But, when an adult signs that waiver, they are accepting that there is a chance of injury or death. I have not yet known anyone who has been severely injured or died while skydiving, but have a friend severely impacted by a brain injury from a car accident, one died from cancer, and I have lost several friends to drug overdoses or suicides over the years. Again, I cannot imagine the pain of losing your daughter and am so sorry, but some things in this world are hard to understand, and sometimes it just doesn't make sense.. we never know when it is our time, so we have to make the most of it, and take what we deem to be acceptable risks with the information available to us.. I am so sorry that this decision to pursue a first tandem resulted in the death of both your child and her instructor. My heart goes out to you. Again, to answer your main question, if one is not a certified rigger through USPA (there is actually great oversight and ratings and such through this centralized governing body for the sport in the US), it is much safer to have a rigger do the reserve re-packs than to do them yourself. But on the other hand, the report does mention a modification with velcro that was made, which was not an approved/safety-tested modification, and this should serve as a warning and learning tool- do NOT modify gear in ways which are not approved and tested! I don't know anything other than what is posted in the threads, but I do read incident reports because I think it is a way we can learn and I think awareness of the risks is important. Hugs and may you find peace mama. Robyn Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

The only DZ I have been to, so read this keeping that in mind- that said, based on what I have read, it is a small DZ compared to some of the "major" ones, and it is a school as opposed to a membership/club organization. Thus, it offers excellent and experienced staff and instructors and thorough tandem training, debriefings, and AFF/ground school activities. This is the reason I chose this facility for my initial tandem and AFF-A license progression, even though it is a little farther of a drive. It lacks certain things like bar or food served on site, shower area, air conditioning for summer, etc. but it has a nice indoor/outdoor facility, grilling, fridges for beer/water/gatorade, a clear nice landing area. It is also extremely kiddo and animal friendly- got to meet the DZO's 3 year old daughter while there (apparently the younger two had just been driven back home before we arrived but hope to meet them too sometime) and one of the newer pilots and his wife's adorable black lab. Being a mom and an animal lover, this appeals to me. Alex, whom I spoke with on the phone several times prior to the day of the jump, was extremely thorough and answered all my questions and gave me good directions and information. She made me feel at home before I even stepped onto the DZ that day. When we arrived, the training was thorough, with a video, practicing arching, going over the exit sequence on a plane that was not in use, etc. There was a bit of iffy weather- about 15 minutes of hard rain- and then it was gorgeous again- weird, but this is WI after all.. Met Bo, Alex's husband (they co-own and run the DZ as well as being S&TAs, riggers, etc. and have quite a bit of experience between the two of them- they make a great team). Charlie and Bo both helped talk our group (me and a friend, and I believe 5-6 other tandem students) through the prep, then the loads started going up. Manifest was able to accommodate timing for everyone and put my friend and I together on a load. One of the women there (packer, jumper, and one of the people who catches your parachute when you land so it doesn't pick you back up-- it was really windy-- I don't know her "official job title" lol) lent me a second hair band (my hair is about three feet long lol) and advised me how to best do it up in a french braid and how to get the goggles under it. Charlie helped us suit up and adjusted the harnesses, and we went over the exits on a simulated exit door and step built out by the landing area. Everyone seemed to work well together as a big family and had a very positive outlook and senses of humor. While the first few loads went up, we hackysacked for a bit, chatted, and I also went over to the packing area for a bit- the guys were joking around and didn't hesitate to answer my questions and explain aspects of what they were doing (as I'll eventually need to learn to pack, I figure no better time to start than the present :) I was advised that Bo would be my tandem instructor, and told him I would be in the AFF course so I wanted him to explain what he was doing and teach me some intro stuff while up there. It seems that many tandems are just done as a "ride" or "thrill" so I don't think it is standard practice to have the student do the steering or landing or anything like that but I am not sure. I know my friend, since it was his second time, was encouraged to do the new kind of exit/flips and such even though he was there mostly for the thrill and doesn't plan to do it regularly. Like I said, I told Bo I would be in his AFF class this week (in three days!? insane..) so he showed my how to do turns w/ the toggles and stall, and then simulate the landing sequence a few times (though he actually did it when we landed) I had nothing to do w/ the pull, I don't think I was even aware of the pull as far as when he did it (timing) although, from the video, twice, he signaled me with a finger. I have to ask him about that. Honestly, he did sit down and video debrief with me, and we had a fairly long talk, it wasn't rushed at all, but it was so soon after that first jump that the questions are all coming into my mind now in the couple days after and when I re-watch the video. I am thinking the signals may have been something about altitude (since he was showing his wrist with the altimeter as he signaled) and/or about when it was time to pull) I also honestly feel that had I been more aware, I could have done more- it was intense, lol. But I definitely understand now why they require a tandem prior to AFF (which I sorta questioned at first- now I know not to doubt the masters- I definitely ask a lot of questions, but some things I guess you just have to trust there is a reason for them, and I am sure if I asked them they would have told me why a tandem is required first- as is, some folks on DZ explained the concept which helped me understand as well). I am actually considering a second tandem before the AFF level, but will see how the first jump course goes and how I feel, and also what Bo and Alex recommend after discussing it. I thought I was pretty aware-- I was more aware than I thought I'd be I guess-- but looking back, I was not anywhere near coherent lol, and it took me awhile to recover from the jolt between freefall and opening. Once I had a few seconds to chill out under canopy then he gave me the toggles and had me play around with that like I said, but I was still reeling from freefall and my ears were in excruciating pain, so I think if I had asked and if I had been more aware I probably could have pulled and/or helped land, but on the other hand I do not know that for sure. I know that the experienced/licensed skydiver's experience differs from that of a first jump, but as far as those considering making a first jump/tandem here, hopefully this gives you a feel for how they do things. And for more experienced skydivers, hopefully this provides some basic info on the environment- low key, positive, family atmosphere (but also plenty of guys and gals with beers mulling about between 4:30 or 5 and 6 pm, when we all headed out to go our separate ways) So, it has a laid back, after last load beer kinda culture, but is NOT a big DZ where you will hang out all night and party- remember, the DZOs have three children under 4 years of age. That might dissuade some, but honestly for me, I couldn't ask for more- they understand where I am coming from as a parent, and I will feel comfortable bringing my son out on occasional days when I am there just to help out/observe/learn packing, or when I jump if I am with someone else who can be responsible for him. With the beautiful rural WI scenery, dogs, and positive, warm vibe, I think it will be great to bring him out on occasion, at least on days I am not jumping, we'll see about others. I had some questions/concerns about the meaning of a "family friendly" DZ or bringing a toddler, but knowing that there are already toddlers hanging out there and that is a built in part of this DZ culture is pretty unique from what I have read. (That said, they also have a nanny and means to bring the little ones back and forth, so they are surely not there all day every day, but enough to be an acknowledged part of the DZ atmosphere from what I gather) As far as whether the tandem rigs (they are Racers) are equipped for student to pull, or whether they allow that on first tandems anyways, I am unsure, it was not mentioned and I did not mention it. I am unsure what their student rigs/gear is like (I saw it, but am not experienced enough to be able to explain what brand/style they were). I had NO sense of altitude awareness- maybe I should have asked for an altimeter, but I am unsure if I would have been aware enough to check it anyways lol.. so essentially I think he read me well enough to know what I was and was not aware or capable of? But like I said, he did try to involve me with some hand signals in freefall, but I either didn't see them, or had no recollection of seeing them till I watched the video-- basically, if you go to Atmosphair for your first tandem, they put a lot of time and thought into preparing you, but let them know what your intentions are so they can accommodate the experience based on that. My friend didn't get a video- I wasn't going to but decided last minute to get one- so glad I did. I don't recall my friend's tandem instructor's name, but he was happy with the experience. My video is awesome, high quality editing and I got to pick the music selections. Bo (TM/DZO) actually did the video while he did my tandem- it was a glove/wrist mount camera- I was surprised at how adept he was with it and how well it turned out. I am really excited to spend more time at Atmosphair and to get started on the AFF course/jumps. This is the perfect DZ in my mind, based on my own experience and what I know (which as stated is not the same as a licensed jumper)- it's big enough to have up to date info and safety precautions, professionalism, and up to date, well maintained equipment, etc. as well as some things for sale, indoor packing area, safety simulators, etc. and yet small enough not to have as many concerns about safety regarding being a single female, concerns over alcohol or drug use getting out of hand, to be welcoming of pets and children, and has an awesome vibe. Highly recommended!

Good thing Im not one of the best of us! LOL... I'm with him... Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

Thank you- this too is important to think about. As a toddler of my son's age he would not understand any such thing but of course thinking long term if I get involved in the sport over the years then yes this is relevant.. this would be very upsetting for a child, and is absolutely worth considering. I surely don't mean to come across with the assumption I won't ever get harmed, it happens and I will do all I can to stay safe but that is absolutely no guarantee.. so this is absolutely important to hear and consider, thank you. Luckily I do have excellent health coverage and all my estate planning and such taken care of, but seeing a parent harmed in an accident is a huge trauma for a child of course, and important to consider.. I guess I hadn't thought that far ahead quite yet as I am doing my first jump in three days and my kiddo is still a toddler.. but important point, thanks. also- off topic-- Skymama, I wrote Sangiro as you suggested when I first joined and have had no response, so I will continue to participate in the forums and will allow you staff to decide what if any action to take wrt deleting or changing names or accounts- please just keep me posted. Thanks for the input.. Blue skies. Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

I'll echo this post. One of the DZ 's I've been to recently has a jumper(s) that ALWAYS brings his/her kid out and just leaves them to run around while they are off jumping. IMO, the dropzone is NOT a baby sitting service. If you want to jump and your kid wants to spend the day at the DZ then please bring a family member or friend to accompany them around while you are jumping (while they are young to walk around and get in trouble... obviously teenagers and older kids are more likely to not run around and trip over your lines you have laid out while you pack or pull on that shiny handle sticking out of the webbing.), or get a baby sitter for the day where you can drop them off before you go to the dz. Oh, absolutely.. I would never ever plan to bring a child to a DZ or anywhere else if I wasn't either directly supervising or had others along who could when I was not- good call. I totally agree and am shocked that anyone would consider bringing their kids of any age along without having at least one other parent, family member, or friend who was NOT jumping to be the designated babysitter or supervisor. I mean, I don't know about most parents, but I wouldn't ever go up in a plane to skydive and leave my child on the ground at an unknown place, however family friendly, to watch himself or be watched by others- totally unacceptable in my book/for my family. Now, I get that if say I do get more involved in jumping and get to know the DZOs better, and say my son grows up and gets older, becomes friends with her kids, she offers to trade off childcare duties, I meet another parent who jumps, and we alternate loads and watch the kids.. but my kiddo is the first grandchild/great-grandchild/nephew on both sides, and has plenty of doting people more than willing to watch him- and actually, my first jump being Sunday we've talked and decided it is best that he stay with my folks at their house and I will go to the DZ to jump with my brother and a close friend. So, in the future, maybe he'll come out, but I want to scope it out first, and of course, I totally agree that any kids at the DZ need to have concise arrangements made as to who is responsible for their welfare and safety at all times.. Thanks for the continued replies and food for thought! Blue skies... Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

I am newer too and wondering about the etiquette, thanks for starting this OP.. and I have also had some trouble with the search not turning up the needed info, am bouncing my toddler back to sleep and killing time so for the sake of adding some relevant info, since it can take some time to track down at times (or maybe I just such at the search function, who knows.. lol) but searching 'tipping etiquette' turned up a bajillion posts from the non-skydiving forum on tipping for take-out food from a restaurant, and only one relevant thread, and searching a common word, just "tips," turned up everything from "packing tips, rigging tips, freeflying tips, etc. I imagine a search of "beer" would also turn up quite a few randoms.. It can be like wandering through a maze sometimes just finding basic info, because if you're new you might not know the search terms to use in the first place, or if common words are used it might bring up many irrelevant threads, not the info you need.. I am getting better, I think.. so, yeah, UTFSE (use the forum search engine) when you can of course, but to simplify, because I too need to look into this and have time to kill, and on my first post here someone took the time to answer my newbie questions which was cool, here's some others w/ relevant info: TIPPING http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=685597 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1096711 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=557105 BEER http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2829443 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=91583 GENERAL ETIQUETTE http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=522040 HTH. Blue Skies! ------------------------------------ Also, on the general topic of this thread, are there any non-drinkers or alcoholics in recovery who have issue with the beer thing? Or those who just don't like beer? (That might get me ostracized but I both don't really drink anymore and don't like the taste of beer.. *hides*) Obviously the main point is to socialize and connect and learn, and to share good will or thanks; I'd be more than comfortable buying beer for my instructor as a thanks or a round for new friends or whatever, no prob, but I will have a long drive and a kiddo to return to so it would be a rarer occasion when I could hang out after sundown and may not really want to drink the beer I buy for others.. I just remember when I got over my drinking and partying phase (alcohol actually upsets my stomach now if I have more than just a small amount, like a glass of wine) I got really annoyed being around bunches of drunk people.. it really does suck being the stone cold sober one in a crowd of revelers. Am I going to feel really outnumbered and awkward if and when I ever stay after the last load, or is it more of a social drinking/lighter drinking atmosphere? I guess that may be really subjective- depending whether it is a DZ, big or small, type of vibe, DZOs, etc. or a boogie or big event, of course, I'd assume more hard partying.. just wondering if my lack of alcohol enthusiasm will be an issue, like I said no problems at all buying a round on occasion and having a glass of water and a chat, just know I won't be able to stay out late since I'll need to drive back most often, and that I don't want to feel like I used to feel when I was sober in a crowd of drunks. Any others experience with choosing not to drink at the DZ to share, will it offend people if I turn down a beer or something (hope not, but it seems so ingrained in the culture, though again I know DZs' culture differs)? And honestly my understanding is that some DZs that are very family oriented- i.e. where i am going, the owners (husband/wife) have 3 kids, youngest is an infant, have a playground and other kids' areas and encourage families, etc.) --do you think they even have that tradition-- do all DZs? Should I ask or just feel it out over time, I just don't know what to expect with that aspect..? I am pretty blunt so I don't have a problem just asking what the after-hours policies and activities are, I just have a hard time imagining a family with a small DZ with kids their ages would have bonfires and beer parties every night after skydiving all day... I just don't know, I guess I shall find out lol.. Finally, when people talk about spending the weekend, do they mean staying up all weekend? Camping (DZ provides it? Near-by?) Getting a hotel? What does that mean? Hope I am not hijacking the thread, just didn't want to start a new one on the same topic/offshoot, and wanted to give those links in one easily organized place since I too have issues with the search not being straightforward sometimes, so there it is Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

Interesting topic, I am fascinated by the psychology behind risk and choices and such. Personally, I have always been a "try anything once" kinda gal though now I have family to consider so I certainly try not to do things that are too stupid (thankfully(?), I got many such things checked off the list in my younger/stupider days lol) Honestly I didn't ever see skydiving as that insane/crazy of a risk, but I think most people surely do.. I mean, obviously it involves risk, not denying that, but I always sorta associated it with things like SCUBA diving, ski/snowboard, waterskiing, etc. (I have not done SCUBA, but have done skiing and snowboarding and waterskiing)- all as "extreme sports" though that seems a silly term to me idk.. I guess honestly reading here has made me feel both even safer about skydiving, and also much more aware of the risks.. when you are aware of things that could happen, and there are hundreds of them, you wonder- how will I know what to do in each particular situation? will i recognize it? will i do the right thing? etc. But then you know that (well, at least hope that) ground school and your instructors teach those things and one can plan to do more safety drills, suspended harness training, etc. to feel as safe as possible in one's reactions and not jump if overtired, hung over, intuition says not to, whatever.. So it is complicated, but for me, skydiving always seemed reasonably do-able and safe if done either tandem or solo w/ training, and learning more and pursuing it has made me feel both better and worse if that makes any sense- I almost wish I didn't know what a spinning mal was, or loss of altitude awareness, or the deaths caused by someone else swooping into me with no fault of my own, or the bajillion other things that *could* go wrong, but you have to know certain things to be safe, fear can be healthy if it motivates one to learn and practice appropriate safety measures (NOT if it prevents one from living life though).. My point is only that reading incident reports and the safety forum is both good and bad- it makes you aware and helps you be safer, but also makes you wonder/fear things more? I am unsure if the info on this site would make the average person who is not considering ever jumping more or less concerned, but I think that's the thing-- one who perceives it as ridiculously unsafe is not likely to actually research the risk level and safety precautions, why would they? I do wonder, I don't have any idea, whether SCUBA divers research such things and are as aware, it sounds like perhaps they are not from some posts? I think in any potentially risky sport one should be well informed, but I also wonder if there is such a thing as too informed (especially for those of us who overthink things lol) But to me, reading statistics, knowing the stringent guidelines and safety regs in this sport, and seeing those with so many jumps and experience is encouraging, as is knowing that over time, gear has gotten better, we have learned from past mistakes, etc. It feels like it is safer now than ever before. I guess I am just not one who as ever had the instinctive reaction that skydiving is insanely risky, though I had to research more to decide how I felt for sure.. I can surely see where most people are coming from though, especially comparing the two, which makes an interesting point. And since risk is relative, one compares things like riding on a motorcycle or driving a car, things I would never think twice about, of course w/ helmet/seatbelt/whatever- most people don't understand. I have told a few close family/friends that I am going for the first time next week and they all seem pretty simultaneously amused and horrified (cause they know I do crazy shit on occasion-- but when I first told my dad I wanted to go awhile back, he laughed at me, so I think a few months later/recently, when I told him I had my tandem booked, he was kinda surprised and messed with me a bit.. but also told me I better double check my will, so yeah, it is absolutely seen as a really risky thing to do by "Joe Public") I agree that it is mostly the fact that it seems scary and out of any "normal" perspective or day to day frame of reference that people are shocked and scared by it.. I generally try to explain the statistics to them, the safety techniques involved (being responsible for yourself/the licensing system, equipment maintenance, things like an AAD, reserve, etc. and then compare the stats of the sport as it exists today with the stats for other less "scary-sounding" sports and daily activities like operating motor vehicles to make that point). I think this gives them some sense of it logically- kicks in the thinking/reasoning part of the brain to help override the primal intuitive "OMG FALL-DIE-SCARY" thing.. Though I did not know the numbers for SCUBA (thanks for sharing) it makes sense from what I know that it would be similar or riskier.. I agree with the womb thing-- and most people enjoy swimming and/or perceive being in the water (hot bath/jacuzzi/etc.) as relaxing and primal. Myself, while I like swimming and kayaking and all, and being in water, I would actually be much more frightened to dive since it, the way I envision it, would feel claustrophobic. I guess I have much more fear of being trapped underwater w/o air, the further I get away from the surface/open air, than of being in an the open sky. I also think people envision the jump as this huge thing, and there's no turning back (which is true)- I liken it (the first part, actually jumping out) to learning to wear contacts (x a factor of 1,000 or so, lol) in that you are overcoming a basic safety instinct- your brain is telling you, don't you dare stick your f'ing finger in your eyeball, and you have to do it anyways.. the first time (for those who have never done contact lenses) takes awhile to get used to and feels odd and uncomfortable, but after awhile you don't think twice about it.. so it seems w/ skydiving eh? For those never done it/ never plan on doing it, I imagine the first image that pops into their head is actually leaving the plane- it's pretty visceral, to think (speaking as someone who hasn't done my first jump yet) of being in an airplane that high, and actually willingly projecting oneself out even though your whole brain/body are screaming not to.. it's intense I am sure, since just thinking about it is intense. Also I think we really like to feel in control and skydiving, to someone who does not know much about it, seems like total lack of control. There is surely that aspect to it in my opinion thus far, though it also seems there is much more control involved than an unread or inexperienced individual might assume, I guess I shall find out to what extent one feels in control-- I'd actually be interested in hearing from experienced skydivers how "in control" they feel during a jump and whether this changed over time or was a factor? Whereas SCUBA is a gradual progression, like swimming, only "swimming" downward, deeper and deeper, with the controlled speed of one's body through the water, and your own body movements in control of your descent, jumping is (largely) gravity. Now, of course you can wear a wingsuit as you gain experience, you can use body position in freefall and canopy control when under canopy and all that, so it's not really 100% uncontrolled "falling" at all- BUT I think when someone first thinks of it, that is the mental association they get, and why they would see SCUBA very differently. And like I said, skydiving is pretty darn permanent- you jump, you're in for good.. you do what you must to land safely. SCUBA, you could turn and come up at any point or change your position or speed.. again, I know this can also apply to skydiving, but people don't understand that, and it isn't on the same level- floating versus falling, which sounds safer to you? That seems part of the psychology to me.. And I think that as a PP stated, people naively assume that if something goes wrong in SCUBA you can just come on up- of course, for deep sea dives you can't really do that at all in time, and of course if something happens quickly you may well not have time or awareness to do so at all- I don't know too much, but it is clearly a fallacy. But I can see why someone would perceive it as such. Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

Condensed version of my question posed: -How has parenting affected your decisions regarding skydiving or vice versa? -What plans have you made to provide for family/self should you be injured/killed? -How do family life and time at the DZ mix (or not mix)? ****NOT asking you to judge my situation- I am (or was at least) asking you to share yours so I can get different ideas and perspectives**** Condensed version of replies: -UTFSE -Stop hurting our brains by writing more than two sentences -Some nice mixed perspectives about kids/family at the DZ -You shouldn't jump if you cannot accept the risk, afford it financially, accept the consequences (yes, thank you, I am aware and that is why I take this very seriously and am considering all angles. That wasn't my question, and I believe I already stated as much.) ------------------------------STOP reading here if your head hurts, if you keep reading don't blame me for your headaches. And if you don't like the way I post, don't read or reply, is it that hard really? I am sure there is some sarcasm involved here but really words on a screen don't convey tone or body language and I personally find it more palatable for you to ignore a post if it's hard to read, unless you have a genuine interest in discussing the topic at hand and are asking sincerely which somehow is not the vibe I am getting. If people don't want to reply to longer posts or discuss certain issues, I can surely find others to discuss them with on a parenting forum, with family and friends, etc. But this is simply one more outlet to communicate and seek advice and I like to utilize all available avenues to get a well rounded perspective and hear others' experiences. I have not jumped yet, and would not and WILL not jump if I chose I was not 100% comfortable accepting the risks, that is the very reason I am asking the question and it is an evolving question and one I have been considering for some time and WANT others experiences and perspectives. I'm sorry but I just don't think in black and white when it comes to issues of family, ethics, life altering decisions, etc. There are many points that have been addressed and I won't respond point by point, for concern over "hurting someone's head" and because it would be an exercise in utter futility. I will tell you quite clearly, since one or two posters seem to think I am a completely negligent parent and sorry excuse for a human being, that I put my son before anything else, I don't need to list my "credentials" but I have been told by most everyone who knows me that I am a more dedicated parent than many they know and I would do anything for my child. That is why I am questioning the different aspects of this in relation to my role as a parent. So- yes I am still thinking this through, and, no, I do not plan on spending money I don't have but I assume everyone, even *gasp* mothers have the reasonable ability to ethically spend some money on a hobby they themselves enjoy. I don't see why it would be any different for me to go out to a nice dinner and a movie with friends once a month, or take a luxury resort vacation or international travel annually, than to jump once or twice a month if I choose to go down that path and do receive my license, money wise. So please don't lose sleep thinking that I am some welfare queen using your tax dollars *gasp* to skydive, or neglecting my son. Trust me, he is quite a contented child and has all his needs met and more. And for those who ask if arrangements are made for his future should anything happen to me, whether or not I ever jump out of a plane, in case of a car accident, death during childbirth (I finalized this before he was born) etc., he has loving grandparents (actually on both sides, as well as aunts, uncles, cousins, great-grandparents, etc.) but one particular set who see him daily since the day he was born and would raise him if anything happened to me, and I believe he would be loved and happy with them and am comfortable with that, and yes, his father and all other family would still be involved and a positive person in his life, he is just not willing or able to take on raising a child full time right now and we understand that. But I am not talking about taking up a drug habit or playing Russian roulette. I am talking about an activity which bears some risk, and that risk is perceived differently depending on what it is compared to and what factors are at stake. But I am indeed questioning whether ANY increase in risk, however miniscule, is justifiable, and know that answer may differ from one person to the next- again hence why I am seeking to hear others personal experiences and thoughts in general- NOT their evaluation of what I should do or thinly veiled judgments from people who do not know me or my full situation. But of course as a mother you want to be there for your child and it is hard to think about being hurt or killed and leaving them behind, I imagine that is emotional for any parent in any situation. Sitting down with an attorney and filling out those estate planning forms are a real slap in the face- mortality is not something most people like to deal with. Maybe skydiving is one of those things that really forces you to confront it, hence why it is both so appealing and so frightening to some. I would be interested in research on the psychology of skydiving... but I digress... I personally happen to like in depth discussion, if you don't, then please don't make comments about how I hurt your head. To me, if someone wants to skip a post they can; if they want to read one or two sentences and respond to the gist or theme they can, and if someone wants to have more info, it's there. If no one responds to my posts I will get the picture that the way I am posting is not of interest or accessible to anyone here- but if I have less people read or reply, but those who do are genuinely helpful or willing to think and write in depth on an important topic, then I have gained some new perspective and wisdom, right? So it is much less offensive to simply ignore any longer posts coming from me, than to post about how I have you a headache. Geez. Sometimes it helps me to "think aloud" when writing, in processing things, and maybe this is just not the proper website or forum for that from what I am gathering. It is an interesting point that in a quick-thinking sport or job, one may communicate or think differently. I also think there are personality and gender differences that may apply. Clearly, pulling to open your parachute, or executing emergency procedures, etc. do need to be pretty damn fast and black and white-- but to me, most other things in life are not and I sorta thought that was the whole point of internet discussion forums. It seems that questions of this nature and depth may be better discussed on the parenting forum I frequent, and I can't help but think again that I may be better off reading and learning here as I've done in the past, since I don't think my posting style or the things that are currently of relevance to me really fit with the forum- and maybe again that makes sense, since I have not jumped yet, but honestly I think the process of starting- the decision to skydive, the decisions about training methods and safety, the concerns and fears, the things leading up to it, the changes made, are extremely interesting and relevant- but perhaps again this is not the place. In an online forum I personally err on the side of more info than less- those who don't want to read it don't have to. Maybe this would be best put in the women's area. it seems that I misjudged when deciding between the two forums as far as placement. If it is really that far out of line with typical posting criteria I am sure a moderator could recognize that and delete it or move it or merge it. And as for search function, some topics are covered, yes, but sometimes they are covered say 7 years ago, or partially covered-- is it not frowned upon here to "resurrect" a thread like that, or is that the preferred etiquette? Is it not possible that people may have had new experiences (like having kids in the past year, when they may not have and thus not replied to past threads?) Is it not rather logical that new members have joined and may have thoughts on the topic? And is it not possible that with such an open ended topic involving some pretty important life issues, there could be ongoing discussion (i.e. the question such as "what is the difference between a round and a square canopy?" yes you can delve into specific pros/cons and history, but it is pretty black and white. Personally I can see telling someone to UTFSE if that has been covered a bunch already, or if they could just read the articles and find out, but I guess I see things differently with issues that don't have a single answer and rather rely on others ever-changing life experiences, opinions, and perspectives- those types of questions are not often redundant when there are new people to add to them or new life experience gleaned in the time between threads. That said, I am happy to learn as I have stated, each forum seems to have its own etiquette- maybe a more comprehensive FAQ would be in order, or maybe I am just overlooking it, if so I apologize.. If the preferred procedure is to resurrect an older thread of similar topic, then I am happy to do so. If it is preferred here, I am happy to make any future postings simple one line questions, but I just don't think like that. Maybe I need to hire a translator, or post two versions of every post- long thought out post, and condensed to the point post. Lol. Blue skies, thanks for the helpful replies, and hopefully my translation was useful, for those who actually asked in sincerity and have some input on the issue. Feel free to fill me in on the etiquette regarding the search and resurrecting old threads as well please... Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

Wasn't sure to post in women's forum or here in safety; move if you wish, but I'm speaking as a woman/mother, but realize every child generally has (at least) 2 parents and fathers also can respond as it's relevant to all.. I am interested to know how you feel about taking on an added risk that you would not otherwise be taking in your day to day life, with regard to your children? I guess some of it is balancing risk versus benefit in general, it just adds a much heavier weight to the risk however minimal when there are children involved in my mind, which is why I spent a few months thinking/reading before scheduling my first couple courses/jumps.. I still have some mixed feelings but feel fairly confident in that 1) I know that I am first and foremost responsible for my safety, shit happens BUT most mistakes would be on me, and that I need to err on the side of caution. (That is not any sort of general statement that most skydivers don't- I wouldn't know yet lol- nor that fatalities are always caused by recklessness- simply that anyone can make a mistake, but that I accept responsibility for taking advantage of all safety days and learning to check my gear, staying current, things like that to minimize risks. The other factor I have thought of is statistics- that things like riding in or driving a car or motorcycle are similar in risk, that it is pretty darn unlikely that I am going to die or be severely injured, that realistically I did take the responsibility of writing a will and estate plan and power of attorney and such for accident or death in any case (at the time, I was prepping for childbirth not skydiving- lol- just thought that having a child enter the world was reason enough to have those documents squared away, especially being unmarried) BUT sometimes my mind goes back to the fact that no matter how miniscule that risk might be, or how comparable to risks I might not even think twice about taking, it is STILL an added risk, however small, that I may be unable to work and support a family due to injury, or die (which I think would scare any mother, or father, but I guess being single and knowing my son's father is not fit to parent him right now is an even bigger factor-- although on the other hand, if someone were married, they may not just have worries about their child(ren) but also about leaving their wife or husband behind.. just curious if others considered and weighed these factors, some perspective etc. Like I said it's not black and white in my head but I have been thinking on it awhile and I guess my approach is that I need to be realistic and take certain steps for the what-ifs, but also feel safe enough that I am making a choice I can live with and benefit from, and so far the information and intuition I have gleaned makes me feel mainly confident in the choice to involve myself in the sport, but again, I wonder how other parents consider these issues, and I do understand that "risk" is very relative and can be perceived very differently by different people, or the same people at different times or circumstances.. Anyways, blue skies.. (and disclaimer, yes I do now realize my username is similar to a mod's (skymama), and I don't want any more drama lol but fyi to those who are wondering, I do indeed realize it and have requested a change if the mods can or desire to grant it, either way I am just here to learn and meet people and become the safest skydiver I can and enjoy every minute of it- so yeah hopefully this can be an on topic relevant thread if others have thought about these issues which I imagine anyone who is a parent has- then maybe most sane parents don;t skydive LOL i don't know much about what "normal" "sane" human beings do... just kidding, kinda, but i guess i sorta do things my own way, but i have my reasons... ) ETA: I'd also be interested to hear if there are families/parents who bring their kiddos along to family-friendly DZs and how that works out (I suppose it depends on the individual DZ and ages).. the one I plan to jump at this spring is owned by a family with three young kiddos near my son's age range, so I think it will be a good fit, they have a playground and stuff, and I hope to have my kiddo and extended family/friends come out at times so he can play and hang out, other days I'll have my son with his grandma at my apt or her house and I'll go out to the DZ by myself or with my brother (he's expressed an interest in diving, but either way if he backs out I'm still making him come and watch :) since I want to get my license (I'm pretty motivated to get this license this season, so I figure as a parent, I know it's hard for me sometimes to be fully in learning/focusing mode if I feel I am in parenting-mode, so if I want to go out and really get serious about getting the levels done and learning other things around the DZ, it will probably be easier to have family watch the kiddo, but I do hope to incorporate him and family/friends into the sport and create a fun atmosphere, especially since I know there are other families there and there are times when you aren't jumping/packing/in class when you'd be waiting around, eating, etc. when I could spend time with family (and hopefully convince the rest of them to come up and jump sooner or later haha- anyone else converted their family?) Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

Thanks for the welcome :) Yeah, I am pretty much over it, I will simply follow skymama's preferences and whatever sangiro replies or instructs me to do as I pm'ed him. Either way, user names aside, I am here for the content and learning opportunity and hopefully to get to know and connect with others in the sport. Just sucks to join up somewhere and get chastised or your motives questioned on your very first post, but I'll survive, in the scheme of things there are much bigger things to concern myself with. Appreciate the advice and will venture to speaker's corner, if ever, with a healthy dose of caution lol. Similar to your sentiment, wolfriverjoe, to quote the great Dr. Seuss (I have a one year old, ok? I'm allowed to quote Dr. Seuss lol) "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." Amen to that ;) So I'll continue to post when I have something to say, speak my mind, try not to piss too many people off lol, but like I said, at least until I have some jumps under my belt, I'm mainly here to read up and get some background info leading up to my first jump and the choices related to that such as which DZ, training methods, etc. which I think I've narrowed down pretty well so far but appreciate any and all input. Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

Look, as stated I am mainly on a forum FOR mamas and every username is mama-something or something-mama. I had not really looked at usernames when browsing this site's content- I had looked at the articles section and the forum posts CONTENT mainly, as well as some images. I try to make my online usernames as nondescript as possible- common words, words that could apply to many people, if numbers used, simply a 1, etc. I had NO idea or intention of creating any conflict or impersonating anyone, and am in the process of getting this account ASAP. I received a PM from someone I have never even talked to basically accusing me of " not being myself" and doing something bad. Well geez, I made an honest mistake and I am sorry, and I would like to get to know people and be able to use this community as a resource as I embark on this journey, and now I feel that some, hopefully not most people, have pre-judged me for something silly and an innocent mistake. So I am sorry to whoever I have offended, I will likely not be posting much for awhile, not in some childish gesture but rather because other than introducing myself and getting some basic advice, I probably won't have much to discuss until I start the process of skydiving and working towards my A license, so I'll continue to read and learn and talk if I have something to share or ask, in the meantime will get this account deleted or changed ASAP since it is clearly becoming an issue to some, and please mods and admins, I have read the forum rules and policies and am willing to learn, so let me know if something needs changing and I will change it. Thanks also for the advice as a new poster here, and the tips on navigating and posting. I did search and found some of the searches to be very difficult to weed through and many terms, or if you don't know the right search terms in the first place it is hard to use them, etc. especially like I said in regard to gear and company names etc. -though with enough time and will power to weed through tons of threads, I probably could have found some of that info so i again apologize for taking your time. I really appreciate the welcomes and kind words and advice, especially the info specific to the area- it's nice to hear firsthand from others who have been to the DZs I am considering. I will as stated fix my error in choice of moniker and look forward to talking more as I move towards my first jump and progression from there. Blue skies. Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

Deedy - Short version of my reply - Welcome, boy was that a long pos.. SOMETHING SHINY!!! You won't be mistaken for the original (one and only) Skymamma until you use Gonzo's naked ass as your avatar. Detailed answers to all the standard first timer questions because I didn't want to be a dick and say "Search is your friend".

Growing up, we hated each other in various ages and stages- I was pretty awful to my first brother (middle child)- apparently I didn't like being displaced from my role as queen of the castle/baby of the house (I was like 18 mos when he was born, so my mom would have gotten pregnant when I was only like 9 mos old- as a mama, I cannot IMAGINE that!) When our other brother came along (and as he got a bit older), he and I teamed up against my middle brother since I had always had a grudge against him, but then my middle brother and I also teamed up against the youngest when he was a toddler before he could really have much say in things, and forced him to do crazy stuff like eat paint and color his face with markers and poop in the backyard... yeah we were real nice. But I definitely did have real resentment about having siblings so close together. My youngest brother was also diagnosed with an illness as a child that changed the family dynamic and caused some stress. I hope to spread my kids apart more- I know they may not be as close growing up, but I want them each to have that "baby time" not feel displaced to soon-- though of course not all kids feel that way, and maybe I am projecting my own experiences onto others. Either way, now I am 22 almost 23, my middle brother turns 21 tomorrow, and my youngest is 17. I get along really well with the almost-21 year old bro, but don't really relate much to the younger as, well, he's a high school boy lol, and I'm a mother. I think as we both get older and have families the age difference will even out though. Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend. "Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

DUDE that is so not fair! Our posts (the two referenced) are pretty much identical in length. Anyway, I will shorten it to this: thanks for the welcome (I think...) And don't mess with me, I may be a mama but I'll still kick your booty haha! I'll work on the name change. Argh didn't mean to cause drama with my first post, please bear with me