Thrashtera

Clear? The "message" in just the two verses we've looked at in the last few posts are contradictory. In one it's claimed Jesus proudly and unequivocally stated he's god and in the other it's claimed Jesus is being coy about it to the point of pretty much being a smart ass. Same verses, two different translations, two wildly different meanings. Let me suggest to you that various translations exist mostly to nuance the power structure of those that have financed them. It is and always will be about control. Science can't prove everything or explain everything and thus requires FAITH. Just like God and the bible. IMO it makes more sense for there to be a creator/God that is in the Christian Bible. We can all poke wholes at anything and disagree with everything as well.

Let's have it then. So why does that make his story any better? http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-different.html Transformations in life don't just happen. There is archeological evidence out there, if you truly lead science it will lead you towards a God/Creator. People say that they need to feel a sense of security or something after death but for me that was not true i was NOT afraid of death when i was agnostic and even less when I am a christian, I simply did my research, and God drawing me with music and a person's testimony and what she went through. The thing about debating is that people will tend to stick with what they thought was right in the first place.So whatever your going to throw at me I am sure I looked at it before but go ahead and waste your time. I will read everything you post and or watch when i have time. http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml it is from 03 and can use updates but it still proves consistency with scientific fact in the bible. Here is a documentary for scientific proof of God if you have time watch it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppIgFEFUpjw Please use Richard Dawkins I am just itching to debunk that :)

Ok, so which god exactly did you put your faith into, and why is he the one true god and not one of the other thousands of gods? What would be the difference between you and your true god and someone who believes in Zues or Atlantis as the one true god? If faith alone is good enough for your god to be true, isn't it good enough for them also? If you try to say zues and atlas are ridiculous examples (they are no more ridiculous than any gods which are believed in today) then what about the Muslim god? I believe in Christ as my Lord and Savior, based on #1 My personal life experience, #2 The archeological evidence and other evidence out there, 3# the negative evidence towards God, 4# To me it would make more logical sense to believe in a God as described in the Bible than atheism. If you really want me to throw evidence at you I can but it will be a back and forth process between you and me. The difference between Jesus and any other God is that Jesus is the only one that rose from the dead, well that is the most obvious one anyway. oh and another reason why I choose to believe in this is because I have seen God work in many of my friends including the OP of this thread.. True faith in Jesus will produce good works and it will help you live life the way God wants you to which is mainly to glorify him. If I focused on the "flaws" or contradictions or the things I find unfair/unjust I would be losing faith. You can say that about anything in life if you focus on the negatives only you will be disappointed/ pist etc and lose faith or belief in that. I do not ignore those things, however I have faith that God has infinite knowledge and know what is best for us and that what it is all about trusting in him and his judgment and not our own. Because who am I to say it is unjust to a God/Supernatural being with infinite knowledge who is Holy and perfect. People should stop looking at it as a religion and more as a relationship with God, because that is what it's all about.

It takes faith to believe in God and that he knows what actions we are going to take and such. If I don't have faith I do not grow in my understanding of him. it takes faith to believe that God knows what is best and knows what will happen. Believing in that alone requires faith/strong belief etc w/w

No, to be fair, knowing the choice of people in a way like seeing the future, & influencing the choice are two different things. But when we speak of the bible, knowing = predestined/predetermined. So you're right, it's not a choice at all. Pete, I read the thing you sent me Pertaining to Romans 9:7-21 (here is the link so everyone else can read it) & would like to point out a few things (bolded & underlined for added emphasis). You say that God judges us simply on our actions, simply because he knows what we're going to do in advance. But the very article you sent me, as well as the bible itself is stating the complete opposite. Right here, in the very beginning the author admits that we're not going to like what we hear - because it's not fair. Even the article's author has a problem with this very teaching that he's trying to justify. So in fact its not God judging us based on what we do that he see;s beforehand, just god choosing. Nothing is said here of people's choice over god's will/predetermined plan. Why, Because Eve ate off a tree that god forbid her to long before any of us were born, so we have to serve time for it?... That's like you going to jail for something I did... Does that sound like justice to you? This is just poor argumentation on the part of the author;; I.E god is god, therefore he can do whatever he wants without question Ask yourself if such an argument would hold up in a court of law - but instead of god we were examining a person. This is faulty logic.; you can't say all that St. Paul & the writer of this article said previously, & then make this statement without the two contradicting each other. Another words, a car can't be painted all blue, but also be all black - it's either one or the other. The author's best attempts to explain/justify th above inconsistencies begin when he cites Lawrence Kohlberg's 6 stages of moral development. Even still, I don't find it sufficient enough. Lastly, look at John Macarthur's commentary 1Peter 1:2, which reads: Macarthur's footnote from his study bible: It is worth noting that this passage, & many others like it is the reason why people have been debating for centuries, & are in one of two camps - Calvinism and Arminianism. There are just two many contradictions & inconsistencies to explain; the bible doesn't hold together nearly as well as Christians like to claim that it does. In Romans and in that article in a different section it also sates that some things God left unexplained in the bible, not because there is no reason but because we would not be able to understand such knowledge. Who are you or I to say it is unfair and or wrong if you or I do not have the knowledge that God has. Again your trying to understand and know God's full knowledge and that is impossible because there are things that God did leave unexplained because we would not understand. Heck like you said people have a hard time understanding the bible because it does not seem fair to us u used the word "debating". Trying to understand the knowledge that God provided in the bible is hard enough for us as humans with the capacity we have to fully understand which is why it requires FAITH. Your not perfect, you do not posses God's power and knowledge and neither do i or any other human being on this planet, why do you think Christians keep growing through out there lifetime? Because the knowledge that God provided in the bible and the truth is already very hard for us to understand and takes a beyond a lifetime to fully understand. Believe it or not but Ed is still growing in his faith and he actually didn't see some things the way I did or understand fully as I did and same goes for me and how he understands certain verse. instead of focusing on the thing that you find unfair in the Bible in your eyes and mind you should focus on God and his will and especially remind you of what he has done for you. I can see why you see Romans 9 as unfair or contradicting with your mind but you have to have faith in God's judgment. If you Believe a a supernatural being called God is holy and perfect then you have to understand that there are things that only a person or being as perfect as God would understand. As far as predestined actions, dude that is part of life man hate to tell you. Just like there are criminals/rapist/very stubborn people etc and there are good genuine people who love Christ, you have to expect that in a world that is not perfect or just. Why do you think God will create a new world?? In a world that is not perfect there has to bad people and good people to have a balance. Bad people are required so that Christians can be challenged in there faith. And once again believing in God and his judgment is not easy and does require FAITH which i do not think you understand fully. it is not easy to have faith at times and it is not always easy to live life for Christ, especially if it dosent always appeal to us. Believing in anything requires faith and or a strong belief that your belief is true and believing that thing knows what is best and or what is true including science. I am not trying to scare you here with this comment Ralf but think logically, do the consequences/benefits of what if there is a God, outweigh the benefits/consequences of what if there is not. You can find something wrong and nit pick at everything Ralf. There are many scientist that believe in God/Creationism just like there are many scientist that don't. Anything that you believe in requires a strong faith to believe that it is right and it is the best option or best explanation of life. There are many things that prove that god exist and you can make a very good argument about it and there are things you can use to disprove God, but nothing is 100% explained and requires faith. Personally I believe that is more humbling to believe in a God that is perfect and understanding that I do not and will not have the capacity or full knowledge of God until I am in Heaven, as opposed to thinking "oh God is contradicting himself and this is unjust screw this"I am not saying you said those exact words but that is how I see it as. You seem to be struggling with your own sense of pride and or submission to God. Nothing is easy all Christian doubt to at one point in their lives. Sorry if it seems like I repeated myself but even in the article it shows us that you need to have faith he fact that he mentioned "Truthfully, the text is not that hard to understand. The teaching is pretty clear. The problem is that we don’t like what the passage teaches." And as far as you talking about eve and eating the apple and us having to pay the price for it. Well that is true actually, if your parents were let say into cults and black and white magic and they had son that grew up with those parents it will effect the kid negatively, so yea Eve taking a bite of that apple will effect the outcome on other peoples lives with sin.. Just like a kid who has a father that beats him and his wife because of his drinking will effect the kid in his life negatively with sin. Is it fair of course not, but what can you expect in a world that is not perfect? You have to have faith in the God's plan..

Personally , I think the concept of hell is a bit over blown. Allegorical fire is used in the Bible to cleanse both those who love God and those who don't. I imagine hell will be a place of regret over lost opportunities. What ever the place is, it is not Gods best for us. ... This is just one of many biblical inconsistencies. Read Romans, chapter 9 - and then tell me man has freewill; any choice in the matter... God knows our fate and actions before were born including the CHOICES that we make

how do you justify eternal punishment, man?... I'm sorry, but society wouldn't even condemn Hitler to burn forever. Furthermore, how do you reconcile a loving god - but one who also is willing to send people to hell? The god of the bible sounds like an egotistical, power-tripping pricK... I'm not interested. It is just killing you that you or i can't understand that. It is simple if you accept Christ as your Lord you have the eternal gift. Did Job curse at God when God allowed Satan to mess with him like that? God knows what is going to happen and how it happens before anyone. Trusting his judgment is part of faith. Am I happy if a kid a 5 year old dies from leukemia or a 15 year old or my friend Ludy who got run over twice by a car and died while being 5 months pregnant no ofcorse not and it really sucks. But for every bad thing that happens God will bring good of it. People were born blind and had other disabilities from birth as well in the bible and while it may seem unfair in our eyes at the time we must have faith in his judgment. You can't understand the full knowledge of God Ralf, if you knew the full knowledge of God you really wouldn't need him then, because what's the point if your perfect? I do know that hell can be worse for some and not as bad for others though http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/04/05/hell-what-does-the-bible-says-about-it/. Scroll down and go to hell differs for some ppl. It has verses clearly stating this.. Society can't condemn something that is eternal . God has to be the judge for eternal life, and people/governments/laws etc judge what happens to you in this life based on your actions here but that is NOT eternal..Sinners would not like Heaven, sinners would destroy it. I think part of the problem people have generally in my opinion is that they hate to admit that there are some things us as humans will not understand because we are not perfect and we do not have that kind of capacity.

Because Christianity impedes scientific advancement. I'm sure that even you'll admit to that. Separation of Church and State is only the beginning of what society needs to break free from the constraints of religious oppression. Honestly, I don't give a damn that you or the next man believes in God. In fact, in a previous post, I already admitted that it has benefits for its followers. However, I do give a shit when your beliefs get forced down my throat in schools, work places, and inhibits my freedoms, as well as those pushing technological advances and sociological reforms. Forced how so? Just cause a person is talking about God or is spreading God's word doesn't mean you have to listen to it. Nobody forced me into believing in God, in fact I was alone when I accepted Christ.. Sure I heard people talk about God, just like I heard people talking about evolution and other answers to life and the begging of life. As far as Christianity in schools I think people/kids have the right to hear both sides and choose what they think is best and more logical.

I guess you were never in the military. Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good;How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him! The bible also says: " Delight yourself in the LORD; And He will give you the desires of your heart - Psalm 37-4 Well, I wholeheartedly believed for the last decade, up until now of course. Has God granted that promise? - no. Have I asked him for anything extravagant? - like winning the lottery? - no I always asked for things any sane man would want in his life - so a job to support myself, a wife, I mean lets face it, being single gets boring sooner than later, & laugh as you may - skydiving. Being that it would bring me so much happiness to be a part of the sport. Are any of those things true in my life? - nope. Life experience has shown me that god does not exist. And if I hear any one more religious person tell me "in God's timing you'll have those things" I'm going to puke 100 meters! I'm 3 days away from turning 29 - time is steadily stopping on being on my side for tthe various things I want to achieve in my life. Don't get me wrong, this is not a woe me post - all I'm saying is anything that you want out of life it's your responsibility to go out and get it. The hell with waiting on god - who clearly does not exist. An you actually did have jobs before Ralf. You should find your happiness in Christ first, not a job, not a wife, or skydiving. Believing in God requires faith, without faith you can't please him. Sounds like a security issue to me. an of course every man eventually wants those things, but first you have to find 100% happiness in Christ and not doubt him.. To put it bluntly you can't expect God to provide you those things when your not consistent or obedient to him. This may seem like a simple answer, but it is true. Doubting God and being inconsistent with God and expecting him to provide like that will not happen.But you seen God answer your prayers before to. Your salvation can't be lost Ralf and I will be there as a friend if you want any help-God Bless