craigbey

Does the DZ have any established rules regarding wearing seatbelts and securing items until a specific altitude? What about the operation of the door? Closed until a specific altitude? These are very simple things that should not be subject to interpretation. These rules could be established by the DZ and clearly posted in the plane.

Not using a seat belt should not even be an option. Don't start rolling until everyone has their own belt and they are properly connected. Make that clear. Make that a part of Safety Day and post a sign in the plane as a reminder. On a personal level ... most of the TI's I encounter are good people doing some heavy lifting. A lot of what they do makes it possible for the rest of us to go out and play. If they ask something of me, I try to help or at least comply with any directives. You have a fun jumper who needs an attitude adjustment,

Swing and a miss. There are many who have taken the time to learn everything they could about their canopies before downsizing or attempting HP flight. But you're not going to see or recognize that. You've certainly missed most of the other obvious clues regarding my experience and efforts to sowly and safely progress. The slow and deliberate progression is what proves I don't have -- nor do I think that I have -- Mad Skillz. Sangi's accident was partly due to his perception of his Mad Skillz. Even though he had returned to the Safire after briefly jumping a Katana, he still pounded in. The mistake he made was very clear and was not caused by some mysterious burst of gravity. Or are you suggesting that the Safire has such a small margin for error that it deserves the attention of 'the big boys in aviation'?

Looks to me like the heading changes almost all the way to impact. Doesn't really matter, though. The damage was done due to operator error. There is no mystery why he was injured. He was on a Safire2 129 @ ~1.3 w/l. So if this incident sends a cold chill down someone's spine, perhaps they should pursue banning Safires. That canopy is clearly way too dangerous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF578oSkrKk Looking at the video again, it is clear that you are seriously out of touch. That should not send a cold chill down anyone's spine. It was a stupid low HP turn that he continued until impact. Sangi has said the same himself.

That's just crazy talk. You can't swoop a Sabre 1.

There is only one size of turn that fits into a standard landing pattern. Hence the name.

Sorry for the drift, but does your somewhat heavier loading on your Velo contribute to better openings?

Knowing the max rate of descent and how the rate changes during the turn could be helpful for getting more performance out of a canopy and could possibly be a form of warning indicator in a situation where the canopy is diving harder than expected or if the rate of decent exceeds a threshold programmed into the device. You can get some of that info from digital alti's now. I sometimes review the jump profile log in my Viso alti to look at the rate of descent and the time in my turns. I was really responding to the idea of calibrating your sight picture using such a tool. It just seems like it might be after the fact as a learning aid. If someone had told me a few years ago that I would use a digital alti, I would have laughed. I was just used to the analog display. Now, I prefer the digital vs the analog. So perhaps a heads up VSI display in a new full-face helmet is on the horizon. If it happens, I just may have to try one out. But it would be like any other device, just another backup. Instrument Rated Pilots? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEywGpIt0vw&feature=player_detailpage#t=23s

Additional tools are nice and I like the idea for a VSI, but IMO calibrating your eyes simply requires a good digital altimeter and experience flying a particular canopy at a particular DZ. For some, this could take many, many jumps. 'Creeping up the the edge of the cliff' means a very slow progression, putting hundreds and hundreds of jumps on each canopy before moving on. It also means starting with small turns and slowly working up to larger turns only after you're consistent. And it means being very conservative when jumping at a new DZ. There are plenty of competition pilots out there who can move from DZ to DZ and bust out the big turns, but they are unique people and they usually have several warm up jumps before competition starts. Many of them have jumped at most of the larger DZ's that host competitions, so they already have a good sight picture for that location. Knowing my limits, I choose to be more conservative when jumping at a new DZ or when jumping a new canopy so I have a chance to calibrate my eyes and adjust my sight picture. The altimeter helps, but when the turn starts, it's all on me.

Indeed, part of what I said already is. But there are no specific requirement for straight legs and 90 deg turns. If someone wants to fly their canopy like they're the only one in the pattern, they can count a landing even if they are flying all over the place to get to the target.

The coolest landing I've seen all year... Wasn't a swooper at the DZ or on video somewhere. It was a young guy just off student status who walked out into the landing area, talked out his landing pattern, altitude checkpoints and intended target. He then got on a load, jumped and flew his canopy almost exactly the way he planned and landed almost exactly where he intended. Downwind, base, final ... just about perfect. And after he landed, he reviewed what he had done in the pattern and on his landing to try and see if he could make any improvements. Not sure how many jumps he had at the time, but looking back, it really was the most impressive thing I've seen all year because of his planning, execution and review.

Wrong. I've seen several experienced jumpers doing this. No kidding. And it would help if others would get a clue on how to fly their canopies in traffic. Yes, but I'm asking for a little more. Again, there are too many people who can't do that.

One of your posts from the Elsinore incident thread may have been removed, but I want to respond here if possible. You can probably do something that many others cannot ... land on a predetermined target after flying a pattern with distinct downwind, base and final legs and 90 deg (+/- 10 deg) turns, straight in with no sashaying or s-turns. I believe this because you dedicate some of your jumps to structured canopy flight. It sucks to hear about anyone pounding in. The recent incidents are a bad sign and should serve as warnings that more training and oversight is needed. But my beef is with experienced jumpers who can't fly a consistent pattern or who choose to spiral down into the pattern or need to sashay and s-turn in the pattern to land at a desired location. I have never been in a situation where I felt my safety was jeopardized by someone under a HP canopy or someone setting up for or executing a HP landing. I have been in several situations, however, where my safety was jeopardized by someone spiraling down in or near the pattern or flying their canopy in an unpredictable manner while in traffic. In one case, the jumper was already at a safe horizontal distance, but spiraled down and into the pattern almost directly below me. Why? Downwind, base and final. It's that fucking simple. Part of the CC proficiency requirements for advanced USPA licenses should include landing on a predetermined target after flying a pattern with distinct downwind, base and final legs and 90 deg (+/- 10 deg) turns ... straight in with no sashaying or s-turns. If someone wants to call themselves expert, master or whatever the most advanced license from USPA says, you must be able to do this. I've seen too many people who can't.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4246637;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Clicky. You forgot to say, "I told you so".

Good on you for staying involved in that way. Thank you. Hope you heal up fast.

No worries ... good old 'common sense' will prevail when necessary. Those DZ's that don't offer the continuing ed will enforce their good will and wisdom on everyone.

Here is another one of your previous posts... And my response... My questions to you still stand. It sounds like your DZ's have their shit together. What are they doing differently besides imparting 'old school wisdom'? If they can be a model for others, why not share their secret to success?

Different people have different perspectives on what constitutes a 'conservative approach'. Some of them may be instructors with different levels of CC skill themselves. As mentioned by another poster who beat his chest with bravado about the glorious past and how wonderful things are at his DZ(s), it is no longer his responsibility... So, you have instructors with different skills and interpretations of 'conservative or safe' and some experienced jumpers who no longer care. How can it be done without rules? It's not sad that other HP sports (e.g. your motor-sports example) have implemented rules, so why would it be sad if there were rules regarding the acquisition and / or use of HP canopies? Or requiring the demonstration of specific CC skills before advancing to higher USPA licenses? I don't think it's sad that the rules might be needed ... it's sad that it has taken so long for enough people to recognize and accept it. It's sad that too many experienced jumpers -- including instructors -- don't participate in CC training.

That is the take away from the OP. They post passionate rhetoric about an issue but take no action themselves. They are aware of the problem and know that it exists at their nearby DZ's, but do nothing to help other than condemn people on an internet forum. The OP appears to be stuck on the first part of... "Think globally, act locally".

Sorry VB. Wasn't really directed at you, but you were involved in the pissing match earlier in this thread, so I thought I'd offer some help. Over the top rhetoric is free and often times used and abused by the same people who have to resort to excessive profanity to try to make their point. FUCK YEAH!

davelepka was kind enough to post a thoughtful PM he received during a spirited exchange in the 'Hot Fueling' thread. Perhaps the mods could make a sticky to this template for future correspondence when needed...

Perhaps a similar stability problem with the Vera prototype? http://www.youtube.com/user/nzaerosports#p/a/u/0/cp61uVe5NOA

We're on the same page. I was referring to major or significant changes to the start of the jumprun or the jumprun heading based on the outcome of the spot from prior loads and how / when such a request gets communicated to the pilot -- my first point. Obviously, this type of request should be communicated well before the plane gets to jumprun or on the ground.

Not dumb, but perhaps just not yet aware of protocol / etiquette? 1) people who don't know or can't recognize when it is good / bad to try to speak with the pilot 2) people asking for major corrections to the jump run (shorter, change in heading) as the plane approaches or turns on to jump run 3) people spotting for themselves or their group from a larger plane (e.g. Otter) after the light comes one and screwing up the spot / jumprun 4) people making excessive noise -- or stink -- in the plane I have met some pilots who may not immediately seem 'warm and friendly' or particularly chatty in the plane, but they're some of the best in the business because they're focused on that business. I like to let them do their job.