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Come on Chuck. Don't have second thoughts. That was an American impulse you had there. Go with it. I'll pay to travel to you. We'll have conversation. And then we can compete in a sporting event if we decide. Please post the details.

I'm thinking we can record us having a debate. Fact against fact. Of course, if at any time you want to take a break, we can always break for a round of sports. Do you like sports? How about mixed martial arts? Just as a sporting thing. First one knocked out or who submits, wins. I don't mean to imply we'd be fighting, just engaging in some sport. I'm looking forward to the meeting.

I may have underestimated you Chuck. I'm glad to see you hold to the core American value of put up or shut up. I hope you believe in a fair...meeting. You and me, face to face, no games and an video recording of the meeting. I'm all about it.

Post your offer. I'll run it by my lawyers to ensure we can have a meeting that is unfettered by any stupidity. Post your name and email address and I'll set up the rest.

You are goddamn right I would. Any time, any place. We'll just make sure it's recorded to be posted on the internet. If you are serious, so am I. I will pay for the ticket to visit you. If you are serious, we'll set up the details so that we have a "fair" meeting, you and me. So we can discuss this face to face.

oh see? you seemed like such a rules-oriented person. yet you failed to understand the rules of this forum. Either that, or you're just making a scene. Do you have cameras posted for this one too? oh wait, let me guess.... we're violating your first amendment rights now by telling you what you can and can't say here? Oh I humbly submit to the rules of this forum. Ban me because I told a couple of fuck sticks what they were? No problem. This isn't government run, so the First Amendment doesn't apply. But the absolute idiocracy of you and Chuck, and your complete refusal to care about the law of the U.S. and your willingness to lie to support the illegal use of government force against citizens, makes me not give a shit. If I'm banned, so be it. I'm shocked that this forum doesn't contain enough Americans to actually pipe in and pronounce fact as fact to defend against you dumb un-American pricks.

From the clip it "appears" that the conversation went down a rabbit trail. The conversation started with winding down the window NOT with is this your car. When people are not being dicks quite often the pertinent question is not the first question asked. I flew into the US yesterday and the lady at Immigration asked about my flight, commented on the weather and after a couple of general conversational type questions got to the "official" questions. Nigel, why don't you take your red coat ass to school and learn how not to be a complete retard. The video shows clearly the VERY FIRST question asked by the agent was "Is this your vehicle." Seriously, the stupidity among you and your coward coalition is stunning. http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_850009&v=4BId1f8WG2s&feature=iv Did you fly into the U.S. the other day? How wonderful. Reminds me of your Cameron recently discussing how they will not be as tolerant to outsiders who have radical ideas. I hope we in the U.S. enact stricter at-the-border laws to prevent non-Americans like you with un-American views to travel freely in our country and spread your un-American bullshit. Of course you'll still be able to post online, and get adherents like Chuck and Rhaim to fall all over you. Those guys are easy though, they don't care about the Constitution of the U.S. You could probably have them kissing your ring in no time. I think perhaps I erred with this thread. I thought this was a forum frequented by Americans who believed in law and order and the Constitution. It appears I strayed onto a board that still believes in the Divine Right of Kings. You're a prime example of why Americans kicked the British ass back when real Americans like George Washington frequented skydiving forums on the internet. I see you've done well in ending that trend.

well when this guy does clean up, please let us know how it goes for you... I mean him. I think, any jury with any sense at all, could see through this guy's story and he wouldn't get too far. I think too, the Agents showed a lot of restraint while this guy was showing his ass above his shirt collar. Mighta been different if, the Agents smashed-out the side glass, dragged his stinkin' ass out of the car and tazed him! I think, that's what the guy was hoping for. Chuck Really, how would that have been different? You claim the guy broke the law and give a pass to the lying agents who broke the law (just in view of the Supreme Court and the law of the land, not saying it was the law according to the Village Idiot with a cowboy hat). and you were doing so well without an overt personal attack. Honestly with morons like you and your girlfriend Chuck, I don't care. People like you deserve to be personally attacked because you've proven time and again you don't respond to intelligent conversation.

Oh my! Oh golly gee my! Want to get you to read the law set before you and acknowledge it, or shut your ignorant un-American pie hole? Say it isn't so! hey look everyone.... here comes the ban-hammer!! Oh yes, the ban hammer! That's my best hope of sounding like I'm not a complete coward who touches himself over the thought of the government unlawfully using its power against citizens! I'm a real man, please contact me if you want a real man who will abandon you in a heart beat because I'm a total coward!

Oh my! Oh golly gee my! Want to get you to read the law set before you and acknowledge it, or shut your ignorant un-American pie hole? Say it isn't so!

well when this guy does clean up, please let us know how it goes for you... I mean him. I think, any jury with any sense at all, could see through this guy's story and he wouldn't get too far. I think too, the Agents showed a lot of restraint while this guy was showing his ass above his shirt collar. Mighta been different if, the Agents smashed-out the side glass, dragged his stinkin' ass out of the car and tazed him! I think, that's what the guy was hoping for. Chuck Really, how would that have been different? If the driver broke the law as you imply, then why would it be different? If he broke the law, and refused to get out of the vehicle, then they'd have cause legally to drag him out. But they didn't. I wonder why? So how would that have been different? Oh you mean it's different because they broke the law but didn't break his head? If they had broken the law, and broken his head then it would be a problem. Got ya. No big deal about the LAW, unless they commit violence. But you said cooperation goes a long way, and you don't care about whether a citizen has the right to not cooperate with unlawful government agents who seek to violate the average American citizen. So why would that matter? If the agents would have said, "Choke yourself and then shoot yourself in the head," you'd be the first grand citizen Cowboy to say, "Yeah, shoot yourself and cooperate!" You're not married are you Chuck? I'm thinking no, because a woman would be able to smell the un-American pussy on you, and she'd fear for her safety with such a "cooperative" husband as you. Hugs!

well when this guy does clean up, please let us know how it goes for you... I mean him. I'll do my best to let you know how it goes for him.

Concur. He had a First Amendment right, but if he obstructed officers then he deserved to be arrested.

It's an interesting question. Reminds me of one of my personal heroes, Ben Franklin. He was very concerned about the German influx into the U.S. and the fact they didn't even speak the language. Personally, I think we as "Americans" should accept a few basic things that are essential to America, while not necessarily all Americans. One is the Constitution of the United States, another is the Declaration of Independence. Take from those two essential American documents the values that define America, and make the case to all Americans. It shouldn't be hard to do, especially if our government and our citizens start actually appreciating them instead of paying them lip service. Those values when understood, practiced, and taught/shared in our education systems will defeat any radical ideology that comes into our country. Our values are very inclusive of so many things, cultures, practices and beliefs. It is this inclusive democratic ideal (while protecting the essential civil/human rights of minorities), that makes our values so great. But when we just pay lip service with cute bumper stickers, and political speeches and yet don't back those values up with our actions...well, then the essential and true "America" will not be able to withstand the non-American values that will infiltrate it -- and much of that infiltration starts with Americans already here, who fell asleep at the wheel and forgot their birthrights (or more than likely, feel asleep and forgot to teach it to their children).

Absolutely. Open the bottle and let it out constructively, or the venom just might just kill you.

Yeah, we were only given tidbits. Like the entire thirty plus minutes recorded on two different cameras. Hard to make out anything with that limited information. If only we had word of mouth, or maybe a hastily written account instead of digital audio and video to re-enaact what happened. But we just have those snippets of complete time stamped video footage. But what we can tell from those tidbits is the driver was "baiting" the poor agents, basically forcing them against their will to break the law and violate the Constitution. Those poor agents. Much like a convenience store owner who has his store burglarized several times in the past, is "baiting" the thugs when he then installs a surveillance system. The thugs will tell you that the surveillance videos are just tidbits and we don't have the full story. They will say they were baited into breaking the law. I have a feeling that know it all store owner will slip up though and get his arrogant jerk fanny in a crack. I can respect the thugs fo keeping their cool as they broke the law and robbed the store. What some don't realize, is that it doesn't matter if your actions are legal or illegal according to the law, but rather how you conduct yourself and if you're polite. Take for instance Ted Bundy. From the little I know about him, he was described as a very "polite" and "courteous" man. I've watched the videos over and over and wasn't some jerk like some of his murder victims more than likely were. That's why as a God fearing law-and-order Texan conservative, I spend my time ranting about the arrogant jerk sorority girls he knifed up and give him a pass. He was polite and courteous and kept his cool. Sarcasm over. I realize others have these values/views, but I don't. Something tells me this driver is going to clean house in federal court and the taxpayers will be paying him and his lawyers. And something tells me some self described conservatives don't care, as they don't care about limiting the actions of the government (even when said government actors are specifically limited by the law). Something also tells me I'll be posting in the forum about how the U.S. federal courts found that the driver's Fourth Amendment rights were violated in a guilty verdict against the agents. But something also tells me that won't be convincing enough to some, who think cowardice/cooperation with unlawful government is more important than an oath before God, and who think a "wise ass" jerk, "know it all" citizen deserves their anger (despite acting legally), while agents who repeatedly lied and broke the law deserve a pass.

No doubt about it, you're right about getting further by cooperating regardless of whether you're cooperating with government officials acting wrongly. Some chose to do this in Nazi Germany, even some Jews. Cooperating with wrongful armed power is easy, and cowardly. Bottom line, this guy was military and took an oath to support and defend the Constitution. That doesn't mean cooperating in its violation, no matter how easy that is for some people.

I think you may be on to something. The video states that he had been through the checkpoint numerous times before, and put up the cameras after problems there. Plus in the video, during a phone call the driver says he thinks they had been expecting him.

Yes, we are limited to merely having the entire thirty-five minute incident captured on two different cameras uploaded to the internet with clear audio and video. Hard to say what actually happened...

You have consistently painted the interaction by giving the agents a pass on illegal action (I have posted the law and Border Patrol procedure, there is no dispute they broke the law and you have offered not a single shred of substance otherwise), instead choosing to call the driver a jerk, say that he "set it up," and implying that he had it coming. You have no sympathy, you said, for this guy who behaved legally, did nothing wrong, and was harassed by the government for thirty five minutes. Beyond that you said that he should have just rolled down his window and answered a few questions, despite the clear fact the driver answered every question other than naming his commanding officer. I hope you have more attention to detail when you're packing chutes. I think you nailed it. You do not give a shit if your government breaks the law and harasses its citizens. You are right, I am hurt by the apathy of Americans who think this is ok, and who side with unlawful armed power over the rights of their countryman. Take care. ----------------------------------------------------------------

You have consistently painted the interaction by giving the agents a pass on illegal action (I have posted the law and Border Patrol procedure, there is no dispute they broke the law and you have offered not a single shred of substance otherwise), instead choosing to call the driver a jerk, say that he "set it up," and implying that he had it coming. You have no sympathy, you said, for this guy who behaved legally, did nothing wrong, and was harassed by the government for thirty five minutes. Beyond that you said that he should have just rolled down his window and answered a few questions, despite the clear fact the driver answered every question other than naming his commanding officer. I hope you have more attention to detail when you're packing chutes. I think you nailed it. You do not give a shit if your government breaks the law and harasses its citizens. You are right, I am hurt by the apathy of Americans who think this is ok, and who side with unlawful armed power over the rights of their countryman. Take care.

It wasn't a hollow apology Chuck. I'm sincerely sorry I called you a moron and suggested you were uninterested in accepting the facts or arguing a point. Of course I am still waiting for you to post some substance here to back up your position, or admit you were wrong about your understanding of the law.

your example about the person wandering and matching a description is completely different than this video incident. The law is the law, "baiting" or otherwise, the driver behaved legally and the agents did not. Anybody care about the law or want to argue the law?

Ha ha. No. There are plenty of wise asses who haven't broken the law. Come on guys, just admit when you're wrong. I've posted the laws, if you want to respond, respond with the law and legal citations. It's not that hard!

Nope. Not at all. Never said that. However, according to the law, they cannot begin fishing for those things not related to immigration status. They can't just ask, just to see, or investigate, just to see what might turn up. Not my rules, it's the law of the United States. As my citations make perfectly clear.