AFP vs. AFF vs. S/L etc...

[jessefs 0]

I know that this has come up under an unrelated post title recently but I was just wondering if anyone actually saw any "drawbacks" to the AFP programs that are starting to go around. It seems to me that a longer, more structured training program that lasts until you get your license would probably be more thourough and motivational. For myself and for others who are beginning, skydiving is a little intimidating at first and to be on my own before I am even certified is not the most comforting thought. My AFP course consists of 2 Tandems, 16 reg. alt. jumps w/ instructor, 2 LALO's from 3,500 and 2 HALO's from full alt. w/ instructor. Just wanted to get a clear idea on people's opinions on the subject.
Thanks,
Jesse

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[CanuckInUSA 0]

We're all different, but I've thoroughly enjoyed my solo dives and believed that once I had graduated from my AFF program, I was ready for them. To date I have made:

1 Tandem jump
8 Supervised AFF jumps
13 Unsupervised solo jumps
2 Coached jumps

I have done everything I need on my proficiency card to obtain my "A" License except for the pack job dive, oral quiz and check dive which I hope I can get all done Wednesday, Thursday or Friday of this week (assuming the whuffo boss lets me have a little time off from work).

Also, I have mixed feelings about coached jumps. I know I need them and I'll get into RW faster if a coach tell others to jump with me once I have the appropriate skills. But I'm not all that kean on spending extra money on coached jumps. I guess I'll have to find a happy medium here.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[jessefs 0]

So are they telling you in AFF "Now, when you continue to do your solo dives after this course is completed, you should be working on this, this this, etc..." or did you just kinda ask around and gather the information on your own on what you should be doing??

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[PhreeZone 20]

>2 LALO's from 3,500 and 2 HALO's from full alt. w/ instructor.

Just a point of refrence here... halo is generally considered to be over 15000 feet since o2 is needed at that altitude. And as for the LO part... 3500 or even 3000 feet is'nt considered to be low... 1500 is low and you never want to find your self there with out a canopy.

AFP is a good program, but at some places AFF grads are taken under the wing of local organizers or coaches to work on skills for free. Its not uncommon to find an AFF grad that has only paid their slot be able to have the complete A card signed off for little more then a case of beer.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Not really Phree - I was at Sibson before and there was a load of US Marines jumping there with us from 13k and they said that was considered as a HALO jump.

I did SL and found it quite good cos all of your jumps are solo (maybe with instuctor following you), and I've never had the fear of hopnpops that some AFF students get.

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[skydiverbrian 0]

Quote

I'm not all that kean on spending extra money on coached jumps.

Check out www.teamfunnel.com. All the free coaching (more like mentoring) you want. I'm sure some folks at dz's in your area will do the same.

In a world full of people, only some want to fly... isn't that crazy! --Seal

[jessefs 0]

Somehow I don't think that 13k would be considered HALO if at SDC the are continually dropping tandems from 13-14k. I do understand that HALO's are from a higher altitude where the o2 is needed as mentioned above, I was just stating that they were required in my AFP program. BTW...what is a normal s/l altitude to be dropping from? Is it the 3 - 3.5k??

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[PhreeZone 20]

To go through HALO school its more then just from 13000 feet. The Marines are also used to getting out at 700 feet so anything over 1500 is scary to them

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Yeah, normally about 3500'

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Say no to subliminal messages

[CanuckInUSA 0]

In many respects we AFFers have been pushed out of the nest at a young age and are on our own. But there are plenty of people who are willing to answer your questions and there are coaches available to help you with your RW skills.
As far as what I've worked on during my solo dives, it's been a combination of working on my stability and up and coming RW skills as well as just having a whole lot of fun (you know, flips, turns, barrell rolls and maybe a small amount of sight seeing).
Once again, AFF isn't for everybody. But I think it was good for me. Of course I've done 24 dives in a five week period. There are AFFers who have only done a few dives (thanks to monetary constraints) in that time and maybe their AFF progression hasn't been as good. Time will tell for those people.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Thanks for the info. I will check it out.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[jessefs 0]

You're right, I do feel as though for my AFP to be most effective, I'm gonna have to keep the jumps as closely spaced together as possible. I definentaly do not doubt the quality of the program and it's effect on my abilities, (which, I'm sure is important.)
jesse

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[tigra 0]

Ideally, I think its a good idea to make 2 or 3 student jumps on the days you come out to jump. The second jump will always be better than the first and by the third, things are starting to click. You learn more, and feel more comfortable which naturally makes the jumps go better. Staying "current" is also really important-try not to let weeks or months go by in between jumps. When you are new especially, after a layoff, it is just like starting over.

As far as the differences between the programs, I don't think that is much of an issue these days. It seems like traditional AFF and static line programs are being phased out in favor of AFP and expanded, modifed AFF or ISP programs at most of the larger drop zones anyway.

Good luck with your training, Jesse!

maura

[Vallerina 2]

I chose static line for a few different reasons:
-my old home dropzone trained most of its students through static line
-being poor and in college, it only took $35 a month to stay current
-It didn't matter as much failing static line jumps (once again, needing only $35 to repeat a jump)
-I looked cool hanging on the strut of a Cessna!

I enjoyed static line. There was always something more (freefall time) to look forward to. Plus, (at the time) it felt like an accomplishment when I got bumped from the Cessna to the King Air for my 45 second delays!

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[greenlightgirl 0]

Jesse,
I went through the AFP program in 2001. I didn't really evaluate the pros and cons of AFP vs. AFF at that time. I figured everyone learned the same. It wasn't until after I graduated and had been jumping for a bit that I realized things like static line and AFF and other programs even existed! I had a friend who went through AFF, and we discussed the differences in detail. What I concluded was that by going through AFP, I had the advantages of passing levels with more ease, had the chance to do relative work such as docking and even turning a few points, and really felt as though I could progress easier since the levels were gradual and essentially building off the previous jump. Gathering his opinion of AFF, it was harder to pass the levels and because there are only 7 levels, there was just the same dollar amount involved since paying for his coach jumps. In my opinion (note the word OPINION), if you are looking for in-dept training and wanting to go into skydiving gradually and set attainable goals, AFP seems it would be more beneficial. AFF seems like it could be intimidating for beginners.
Opinions are like a__holes, everyone has one, and thinks everyone elses stinks! That's just my experience and ideas.
Good luck and congratulations on your training!
Allie

Alisha "Allie" Carsten

[GrumpySmurf 0]

I think they may have been refering to the USPA pre-'A' coach jumps done at non-AFP DZ's to acquire the skills needed for the 'A' checkout dive - which requires a 'Coach' Instructional Rating?

*Shameless plug* But, if you have an 'A' and want to learn - come find us - we can help

[GrumpySmurf 0]

I think the USPA SIM refers to altitude classification as follows:

0 to 15K - Low
15 to 20K - Intermediate ('C' license)
20 to 40K - High ('D' license)
40+ - Extreme ('D' license and missing a few marbles upstairs)

The divisions seem to be based on on-board and bailout oxygen recommendations.

So according to the SIM - a 13K freefall is a LALO just like a hop-n-pop.

[jessefs 0]

Thank you guys for your information and input. I think I am going to stick with the AFP program and do a 3 jump package every 2 weeks at least. I kinda have this feeling that I will be comfortable any route that I choose but AFP seems the most appealing for me. A license here I come!
Cheers
Jesse

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[skycat 0]

I personally did AFF, but if I could do it over again I would have done AFP. I remember how I flew with only 20 jumps and I've jumped with other people off of AFF with 20 jumps. Then I jumped with people off AFP with 20 jumps. The difference is night and day. People who did AFP are so far ahead of the power curve not only in the air but also under canopy. They have an easier time getting others to jump with them since they are able to hold thier own in the air.

Really I think the biggest benifit is with so many jumps with an instructor is that the program can really be tailored to the person. If you are weak in something like tracking, that gets worked on more than lets say leg turns. If you are totally on the ball and a natural, you might start learning how to fly the mantis. You have the ability to learn more on each dive cause less is expected off you so you don't end up so overloaded once you are in the air.

Also if you think AFP is going to cost you alot more than AFF. Derek figured it out today when we were talking about just this thing with a DZO. It turns out that AFP which takes you to 20 jumps and every jump with an instructor who is also videoing you, so your de-brief is more than you did this or that, you can actually see what you did. vs. AFF (to 20 jumps) that is only 7 jumps with an instructor, only video you get is if you buy it, then if you do the coach jumps you are suppose to do (depends on the DZ) or 13 solos comes out to cost almost the same. I think AFP was like $50 more.

So like I said if I could do it again I would spend $50 more and do the AFP program.

Fly it like you stole it!

[jessefs 0]

That's a good point, I wasn't really factoring in the cost of solo jumps after AFF in the price comparison of the two, i wasn't even figuring in failed jumps....if they were to happen. It seems as though the more unbiased people I talk to, the more AFP is getting recommended.
Cheers
Jesse

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