Packing nuances

[melk 0]

No problem! I totally understand your concern. If I thought a jumper was just packing carelessly I would say something too. It's far too important to just make up your own rules. I'm a new jumper in the grand scheme of things, but not brand new. I have about 170 jumps, but I ask the same amount of questions as a noob bc I feel like the knowledge out there is endless and I want to fully understand all decisions that are made while packing. Personally I think it's silly that "asking questions" is a sign of a newbie, but I know that people sometimes get to a certain point and think they have arrived and stop asking the why's :(

You're right about reading manuals. If I'm going to be a packer, I need to read manuals for other containers

[melk 0]

Hooknswoop

Keep asking questions. If someone doesn’t give you the reasoning behind their answer, ask “why?”. Compare the ‘whys’ and decide for yourself. Often, two different answers can be correct, but one is better for you or your gear.

Derek V

Thanks. This is great advice

[timski 80]

Hooknswoop

Quote

Don't basers use nose rolling for on heading openings?

I didn’t when I was BASE jumping. The center cell was wide open with 3 cells on each side of the center cell.

\\\V///

Is the best I can explain it. Same way reserves are packed. You want a nose first inflation for on-heading performance and to help prevent a line over. If the tail deploys first, the nose can catch a control line, creating a line over. Definitely no rolling of the nose.

I don’t roll or stuff the nose when packing a main.

Derek V

squirrel.ws they have two videos packing BASE rigs... Two VERY nice videos!

[angryelf 0]

Good call on the WS specific technique for bag orientation. I forgot about that one.

-Harry

"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

[ChrisHoward 8]

Cloggy

but wouldn't leverage be the major factor?

Absolutely. The correct orientation of the bag gives the PC the advantage of leverage to rotate the bag upright breaking the friction before lifting the bag.

[mark 107]

ChrisHoward

***but wouldn't leverage be the major factor?

Absolutely. The correct orientation of the bag gives the PC the advantage of leverage to rotate the bag upright breaking the friction before lifting the bag.

I'm not sure this is correct. If it were, Sunpath would greatly prefer bag-grommet-to-reserve-bulkhead/bag-mouth-to-BOC for all its models, including those whose manuals recommend grommet-to-pin.

I think the answer most probably lies in the design of the container corners. For most rigs -- Sunpath being a notable exception -- the container corners are wrapped to form a pocket that traps the bag.

It used to be that bag orientation was a personal preference. The container bottom generally looked smoother with the bag grommet there instead of bulky, bumpy lines. Fortunately, BOCs came in style and covered the ugly at about the same time as wrapped corners came in style.

--Mark

[tikl68 6]

Giving out misinformation is his/her SOP.

[yuri_base 1]

For wingsuit (and even tracking), exposing slider works really well to eliminate canopy cocoon hesitations and resulting from them offheadings, linetwists, and hard openings.

[inline Cocoon.jpg]

Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

[ChrisHoward 8]

mark

******but wouldn't leverage be the major factor?

Absolutely. The correct orientation of the bag gives the PC the advantage of leverage to rotate the bag upright breaking the friction before lifting the bag.

I'm not sure this is correct. If it were, Sunpath would greatly prefer bag-grommet-to-reserve-bulkhead/bag-mouth-to-BOC for all its models, including those whose manuals recommend grommet-to-pin.

You can't argue with physics :-) Levers have been working for 1000s of years :-) You can of course argue the necessity of that leverage.
Can you please link the manuals you are referring to? It may very well be a concession they have made for their own reasoning (the Aurora doesn't count). The Javelin manual on the SP website clearly states "rotate the bag".
Another easy way to tell that your DBag isn't meant to be packed grommet to pin is simply the size of the bag in that configuration. Bags are built to fit containers, changing their orientation will mean that the bag dimensions no longer match the container dimensions. If the depth of the bag is greater than the height of the side wall then packing it grommet to pin is obviously not the way it was designed to be packed. Square peg round hole.

Edit: As you noted, this has become more of an issue as containers have become more compact with pocketed corners etc. I have also noticed that containers with higher side walls and more rigid boxed in dimensions suffer more here than softer containers with shallow pack trays.

[justme12001 0]

Nice catch!

[ChrisHoward 8]

mark

I think the answer most probably lies in the design of the container corners. For most rigs -- Sunpath being a notable exception -- the container corners are wrapped to form a pocket that traps the bag..

A little research today revealed that the Vector 2, Talon 2, and Racer manuals all say to rotate the DBag. No pocketed corners in sight on those old things. So the concept clearly pre-dates pocketed corners. The Talon manual even goes as far as to say "FAILURE TO PLACE LINES TO THE BOTTOM OF CONTAINER COULD RESULT IN A PILOTCHUTE IN TOW".
So that leads me back to the leverage argument. Of course I could have just made a phone call and asked instead :-)

[Westerly 61]

It's also worth noting that many modern D bags are not square when packed. They are rectangular to a degree and if you pack them with the lines facing your back instead of the bottom of the container, the bag wont fit properly. You can force it in, but that is not how the container is designed. Just do what the manual shows.

[Top_Bunk 0]

The 2002 Wings manual gives two options for D-Bag orientation: Grommet to pin, or Grommet to BOC. It gives descriptions of each orientation and the statement "use whichever method suits your container size and packing style".

The 2015 Wings manual shows grommet to reserve.

Take from that what you will, but here we have three different orientations recommended by the manufacturer at various points in time.

Most of the jumps I've made have been on a Wings packed grommet-to-pin, because I learned to pack with the then-current manual. In the video'd deployments that I've examined the dbag tends to come off my back stable when packed grommet to pin. When packed grommet to reserve there is a tremendous amount of rocking due to the initial rotation. Is the rocking an issue? Probably not. I just like to keep deployments as clean as possible, so I stuck with grommet-to-pin.

[mark 107]

ChrisHoward

A little research today revealed that the Vector 2, Talon 2, and Racer manuals all say to rotate the DBag. No pocketed corners in sight on those old things. So the concept clearly pre-dates pocketed corners. The Talon manual even goes as far as to say "FAILURE TO PLACE LINES TO THE BOTTOM OF CONTAINER COULD RESULT IN A PILOTCHUTE IN TOW".
So that leads me back to the leverage argument. Of course I could have just made a phone call and asked instead :-)

Photo 1: pocketed corner on Vector 2. View is inside the bottom left corner of a packed Vector 2. Approximately 1" pocket.
Photo 2: pocketed corner on Talon 2. View is the bottom corner of a Talon 2 turned inside out. Approximately 1" pocket.
Photo 3: pocketed bottom on Racer, although it's a bit more difficult to tell since it's elegantly done by tailoring the the container rather than just making a corner.

--Mark

[ChrisHoward 8]

Yep. Clearly pocketed and restrictive to deployment.

[Westerly 61]

Top_Bunk

T

Take from that what you will, but here we have three different orientations recommended by the manufacturer at various points in time.

Maybe that is because the rig design changed and so the packing recommendations did as well? Surely Wings containers made in 2002 were probably made a bit different than ones made in 2016.

[timski 80]

So dynamic WS corners mitigate this issue? Both my rigs have it (older wings and vector3). I jump mostly at a 182 DZ and do a lot of solo. I was in the business of flying camera backward to get deployment feedback and see what was actually happening. Of course WS deployments are a whole other animal that brings EVERYTHING to light. I do still use a regular D bag and really need the switch to semi stowless...